Insimenator.org

This is the one and only paysite discussion thread. If you are curious whether such and such site is worth a subscription or want to discuss the pros or cons of paysites this is your shot. However, because the last thread got removed because some people flat out bashing people and beating people in the head for having an opinion here are the rules.
 
1. Show the other posters respect. Not everyone is going to share the same opinion as you so it is pointless to beat someone in the head with yours.
2. Do not post things such as Paysites sux0rs.. I only wish to see intelligent, thought out posts or questions. If you can't do this then don't waste our time and yours by posting.
3. No bashing of specific people. If you are dicussing a site then it is inevitable that their name will be used but I do not want to see any useless bashing. Yes this even means no Carla Niven bashing. Been there done that and it has lost it's amusement value.
 
These rules may or may not be updated later depending on how people behave. Also anyone who violates these rules will have their posts moved into a moderation queue for review. Depending on the post you may receive a warning, after 3 warnings a 3 day vacation and or banned from participating in this thread. So again use common sense before posting.
 
Again do not screw this up and make me regret allowing this discussion again.
 
Remember: This is a paysite discussion thread, where I expect discussions, not a paysite bash fest. Show respect to your discussion partners by avoiding bashing, and having well thought out discussions.

Thank you Kathy, I think I'll bow out of this thread with just one comment. I think everyone knows my thoughts and feelings on this issue. I am not totally against paysites per se so much as the things that are happening on them. I myself have used paysites. I do not believe in anyway shape or form EA wanted their program to be used by others as a means to support themselves. Nor do I believe they intended for people to make a profit off their product. There are laws for this and they are called licensing agreements. That's all I am going to say. If it truly is a bandwidth issue, there are many other ways to address it and should be sought out. Now I'll just zip it ;)

Thank you, Kathy!
 
Let's start out with one of the proofs that EA is not happy with people selling custom content:
 
http://noukiesims2.net/EAconfirms.gif
 
I have sent a letter with specific questions to the EA support desk. This is the answer I got, and I took screenies of it.
 
It's pretty self explanitory, but what do you guys have to say about EA's reaction? :)
 
*Edit* LOL pegs beat me too it!

Hi Nouk,
 
GM Prada's response specifically cited tools created by Electronics Arts.
 

Many people, myself included, do not use Home Crafter or Body Shop in the creation of content. I use SimPe, Milkshape 3D & a paint program, none of which are created, produced or owned by Electronic Arts.
 
Does Prada's failure to include content created by these other tools indicate the exclusion of content created with them from the letter of US Copyright law?

No idea. I should ask again :)
But as you are still extracting and editing EA's  Sims 2 game files, and you still need Sims 2 coding for it to be useful, I expect the answer to be 'no'.

*edit* I've submitted the question, i hope I'll get an answer :)

I think it mainly has to do with the actual .package file type used by the sims 2.  I read somewhere (I don't recall where) that as soon as it goes into the .package form it becomes property of EA games.  I could be wrong, however.
 
I've got no stance on paysites anymore, anyways.  They're all human and deserve the same amount of respect any of us do.  So I let them be.

I, too, expect that the answer will be 'no'.
 

EA's EULA states that if it goes into the game it becomes EA's intellectual property.
 

I have never had and do not have a stance on paysites.
 
Edit:  If EA officially announces that paysites are a violation of EA's copyright and that they all need to be removed, my stance will be on the side of EA.

I'm very glad to see this thread opened, and I hope it can stay open for longer than past threads on this topic.
I don't like that paysites have been violating the EULA for so long, and I'm glad that EA has finally said something about it. To me, paysites are simply selling what is not theirs. Even if someone uses SimPe, Milkshape, or whatever other programs, once they put it in game it belongs to EA and is not yours to profit from. Now that EA's given multiple responses, I don't think paysites can ignore it any longer. Still, as long as these statemets are in the forms of replies to emails, I doubt we'll be seeing much action from paysites.
I also feel that paysites destroy the content sharing EA intended for when they made it possible to edit the game. Custom content creation isn't meant to be a business, it's meant to be a fun and sharing community. Paysites ruin that.
That about sums up my feelings on the matter of paysites.

EA's EULA is in fact very specific! It covers not only the tools provided but the game material also. Even if the tools such as Bodyshop or Home Crafter were not used, any CC which is made has to be combined with game material for it to work in the Game. If you use SimPE to make a .package file this is where the combinations take place.

Under current Copyright Laws, what ever you create outside of the game belongs to you. However once you place that creation into a format which the game can utilize, you relinquish your ownership and it reverts to the Copyright holder of the file format.  In the case of CC created for TS2, once it is placed into the .package format leagally it is owned by EA!

This isn't just in The United States, but also falls into International Copyright Laws as well.

I will use here an illustration given me by a professor of law to explain why the EULA is in fact extra-legal.

But the thing is, I don't think a canvas or frame will come with a copyright attached that determines how it will be distributed after purchase (apart from preventing theft and claiming as one's own work). The .package format does have such copyright attached to it. Therefore, EA does get to control how custom content is distributed, and the EULA specifically says it is not to be distributed for profit.

therein is the quandary for jurists, Spongity.  The fact that there is a pre-attachment of a copyright to things in the EULA renders the EULA illegal in its very basis in the opinion of the 17 lawyers and 3 judges that would speak to me on this matter.

All I've got to say as a newbie is that I'm jealous that you and the others can do custom content at all! (and that some of you can read legalese too!) :iconbigg:  shhushh bureaucrat -me!:shh:

Thanks for this thread Kathy :) Will be interesting to see what they reply to Nouk's question...keep us posted! :D

As everyone else has said already, greatly appreciate that this is back in the open again, Kathy!  :angel:

Like Spongity said, .package files are EA's lawfully.  Even if someone edits a mesh/skin extracted from the game, or makes one from scratch and places it within the file, the changes may be that person's hard work, but the file format is still that of EA Games.  Therefore, EA should have a right to say how their game files are to be used.  

And I've seen someone mentioned before that these people selling custom game content through the .package file format could just as well have the skins and meshes for sale by themselves.  Sure, it's pretty inconvenient for people who don't know how to put CC together through SimPE or other means, but it's better than selling it "illegally"...

As to EA's reaction on the matter, it certainly looks like they're getting somewhere... very slowly, but it's somewhere.  At least someone over there isn't turning a blind eye to this issue anymore.  I hope to see how this progresses!  :D

Ok I know I promised only one post, I'm gonna post just one more time. People on both sides want to point toward copyright law. This I do not understand? This has nothing to do with Copyright law per se, nor with trademark law. It has to do with Contractual law which is in EA's corner. Who among us thinks they can stand in front of a judge and have him say why did you agree to that contract if you didn't agree with it? Well I didn't know what was in it. This is not a ground for a defense.

What we have with EA is a contract a very legal contract, and we have to agree to said contract in order to install the game. Which is why there is the "I disagree" button. EA nor anyone else stands over us with and forces us to agree with their contract. That is totally our choice.

It is very similar to the contract ghost artists sign with more popular artists for them to sign off on. Contractual law and copyright law are two very different things. And ignorance of a contract you agree too is 0 grounds in a court of law for violation of that contract. The very minute we click on the I agree button we forfeit all said intellectual rights by a legal and binding "Contract" we have made with EA. Giving them "Contractual Copyright" which we no one else we agree too by contract.

Beos, I'm a little confused as to how this makes the EULA illegal. I'm not sure how that works out. Anyway, I know people are going to be unhappy about this, but FOR ME, the EULA is a non-issue in this debate. If no one is going to enforce a law (for exmaple, jay-walking), then it might as well not exist. This doesn't mean that it's not wrong, just that it has no point. You could argue until you're blue in the face that it's against the EULA, but it won't do you a bit of good. I also think disregarding the EULA might make people come up with something more compelling. Like instead of the EULA being the FIRST retort, people might say "if you're claiming you need help with bandwith costs, try this. It will make it so you'll practically pay nothing. Now, if you do this and still charge, you probably don't need the money. If you ADMIT that you're doing this purely for financial gain, then I think I can live with that." Maybe, maybe not.

I understand why paysites need the money: to pay for the server that is hosting their site and contents.

However, I'm the kind of person that uses stuff strictly from freesites because they are free.  There's a difference between asking for donations to keep a site going (sometimes, the donation is through either paypal or the opening of a CafePress site with T-shirts and coffee mugs for sale) and having to pay for a monthly subscription.  The difference is choice.

But I do believe this is a "Fair-Use" law in the U.S.  I don't know much about it though.  I do know know this: If someone makes a machinima short with their game, as long as they are not making money off of it, they're not liable for copyright charges.  I know that Rooster Teeth sales items that are "Red vs. Blue" related (namely, popular quotes printed on T-shirts), but they do not feature any of the actual characters of images of the characters from their series.

Of course, it's always going to be debated.  There'll never be a solid end to it, that is unless the mods of the board delete this post and any other posts about it.  That's probably the only way that this topic is ever going to stop being discussed.

No one is forcing paysite owners to have their own site that they have to pay for. There's plenty of sites like InSim and MTS2 that will host all your content for free. Also, people have analyzed how much certain sites make from their 'donations', and usually the numbers are way higher than a site should cost.

I understand the want for your own site. In larger places that will host your content, like InSim or MTS, your work may get overlooked. I'm pretty sure that many people don't take the time to go through and look at every section, or every new download, and it's unrealistic to ask mods and the like to post EVERY new creation. So, in this respect, I understand the want for your own space.

I am, however, of the opinion that if you can't pay for it, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you put up a paypal button and say you need money for the site, or ask for alternatives, that's fine. When you create the website, you need to be aware that it costs money to do this. If you're not, and find yourself in a black hole of debt because you can't pay for this webspace, the LOGICAL thing to do would be to close the site. People may be sad, yes, but it's not their fault that YOU planned poorly, and they shouldn't have to pay for it.

On this topic: I get that the stuff on most paysites took a lot of time and patience to create and I get that the creators want some kind of 'return' for it.
Also I get that many of the people who want to download the creations cant pay for it, or are underage etc.  
This storm will never blow over, its useless trying to fight paysites.  
Instead: use your discretion when downloading.  If a paysite offends you in some way stick to free sites.  Just dont bother with them and they wont bother with you.  Its not like they're withholding something that belongs to you...its their content and they can do with it what they want.

Having said that Im confessing to using the booty when I see something I really like.

But the problem is; a lot of people, where of I am one, thinks that it's really *not* their content. So, they haven't got the right to sell it. Not i if it's made in BS or HC, nor if it's in a .package file.
When agreeing to the EULA the player/creator gives away their rights to their created CC.
And without agreeing to the EULA, you can't install the game...

Play devil's advocate if I work on a mesh and spend some 30 hours perfecting it that doesn't mean it is any less mine because I put it in a package file than a painting that someone paints on a canvas by x manufactorer. I can still take my mesh and sell it on a site such as Turbo Squid. My real problem lies in the ones selling the content that they took from the Poser community or other 3d communities, coverting those and then selling them. Other than a conversaion, mapping it and texturing it they performed no real work which they claim to and are misrepresenting themselves to the community.

I'm envious of anyone who can create. I have cognitive disabilities, cannot focus, concentrate etc, so learning the complexities of creating is beyond me. Having said that I will admit to falling into the Pay-Site --oh I have to have that, and willingly paid for it. My choice. Having said that, I went on my merry way downloading this that and everything, and then found my game to take close to an hour to load. So I went about the lengthy task of cleaning out my downloads folder. And what did I discover????
To my utter shock and amazement 95% of my "get rid of this" was my pay site downloads.
Then I discovered this site, along with it's sister site and MTS2, and I was in  download heaven. With one small problem, I love with all my heart the creations by Cashcraft at The Sims Resource, so that is the only pay site I continue to be a member of.
I did try several times to make clothing, but my results were enough to scare a hungry dog away from it's breakfast. If making clothing was that difficult I can only imagine the time and effort put forth in the creation of objects. And new meshes----well I can't even imagine the work.
I understand someone wanting to be reimbursed for all the work they put into something, I crochet afghans and sew quilts, but not for free, (unless I am giving one as a gift) and yet, I am so incredibly grateful for the many talented and excellent artists who unselfishly offer up their delectable goodies for free.
This game would have long ago lost it's appeal for a great many of us, if it weren't for the Custom Content, offered by such wonderful sites as this one. And times have changed for me as well, now that I am on a disability pension, I no longer can afford to frequent the Pay-Sites, as I once used to.
I am of the opinion that EA would benefit beyond belief if they hired some of the creators from these free sites to actually create for the game itself and future expansion packs. The content of the game itself would be vastly improved leading to possible higher sales.

exactly, while the package file still belongs to Maxis, I don't see how the mesh could be anything other than yours. If you've made it with Poser or Milkshape, which are two non-Maxis/EA programs, they legally shouldn't have any rights to it. Nor to textures made in Photoshop or Paint Shop.
But if it goes into a .package, the file it self is not yours to sell.
 But I know HP has talked about this over at S2C. It probably is possible, to legally sell what *could* be made into CC. Like texture files and meshes. If of course, you've made them yourself,, so you'll own the Copyright.
They're not in a .package, not made with any copyrighted "Tools and Materials" so who could stop you?


Edit: baileybop - I think clothes are hard to make too >_< and you'll never see me even try about doing a mesh... *shiver*
Everyone sucks big time when they first start out with creating. lol, try doing eyes... ;) I can personally attest that it's not that hard ^_^ Especially if you start easy and just take an eye from a photo :)

One question I forgot to ask last time:

In order to sue someone for using your content, it has to be copyrighted, right? In order to obtain a copyright, you have to send in some kind of application and go through some kind of legal paperwork, right? Now, how many of these paysites, or sites in general, who claim to have a copyright ("this hair was made by me, babyblue, and is copyrighted. DO NOT STEAL!") have actually gone through all the steps necessary to obtain a LEGAL, BINDING copyright for their work? Would one even be issued since it's for a game that none of these people had a hand in creating?

No, in the US, at least, you don't have to file any paperwork or make any statement in order to claim copyright.  All you have to do is produce the creation in a tangible form.

I agree that while EA owns the right to the use of the .package file, any mesh or recolor of a mesh belongs to the individual creator and can legally be sold. What EA forbids is making commercial use of its tools--in this case, the .package file.  It doesn't have any legal standing regarding meshes or recolors of original meshes that aren't dependent on the use of any of its tools.

Doesn't someone have to approve the creation? If there's no kind of documentation, what's to stop me from claiming I created something first and you violated my copyright when it's really the other way around? I know that this can be taken to court, and people have won cases. There has to be a way for a judge to see some kind of legal, binding document saying that this material is yours.

well I was think of trying to look at some pay sims 2??? but does any 1 knoe if any is worth the money????

Here's a question for you...do you download a lot from free sites? Such as Insim and MTS2? If so I think before you decide to support pay sites, you should consider donating to them. They pay outrageous server costs and keep all content free. If we don't support them...snag things here, then go and pay for stuff elsewhere. Why should they remain free? Why not they too go pay? People snag from us for free then go and pay for it elsewhere. You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying they ever would, in fact I don't believe they ever would. I just think if were downloading a ton of stuff from them, then go and pay for stuff elsewhere we should consider donating to them first...for maintaining free sites for us. As far as are paysites worth it? Each person has to make their own decision on that.

babyblue,

What many people do when they create artwork is to have something showing the date of creation on it, so that they've documented the originality of the creation.  Yes, you can apply for a copyright to make it official, but my point was that you don't legally have to.  

From a government website on US copyright law:

Copyright Registration

In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration.

http://www.copyright.gov/register/

Hmm. That seems really weird to me.

For what I know, in Italy too works in this way. Copyright is granted by the act of creation itself. Copyright registration is a further official document, which puts a timestamp on the item, so in case of litigation you have a solid proof about the date of your creation.

If I register a copyright on someone else's creation, but he can prove in another way the author is not me but him, my registration is revoked for sure.

Your correct this has been tried in courts here in the US without actual copyright protection I don't care what they tell you, no court in this land is going to award you a thing. This is why if you do a search on copyright cases you'll find 99.9 percent of them have been settled out of court with each side paying their own attorney costs and a cease order. Somewhere, someone has either drawn, painted, or made something very similar and they own the Patent. Which means at best you get limited copyright protection.

EA is smart enough to know they have limited copyright protection which is why "you" have to agree to a contract. Writing is different although many have lost on that issue as well. Artwork is set up to protect budding artists, moreso than the actual artist. But here we come full circle back to copyright and copyright has nothing 0 nada to do with contract laws.

Contract laws could care less what "you" think you own. Who made it. Who thinks they own copyright. Besides we give up any right to copyright on our own creations the minute we click on agree, we agreed to the terms of their contract. Here's the major difference, you violate copyright there are almost always set fines, cease orders. No biggy. You violate contract laws, the company sets the amount they feel are the losses. Some of these people really should use their brains. When you play with fire, you usually get burned. Maybe EA will never do nothing about paysites, and maybe they'll decide the lining in their pockets could also use some fattening. It's all about the almighty dollar and if they feel these people are getting to big a piece of the pie.

Thanks Pegasus. That makes things a little clearer for me. Maybe I just had it in my mind that you had to file some kind of paperwork for the copyright. As one of my professors said: "A copyright is only worth as much money as you are willing to spend to protect it." And in this case (maybe with the exception of TSR and Peggy combined) I hardly think paysites can hardly even BEGIN to go up against EA.

Pegasus, I think you're right.  As far as EA's concerned, this is a matter of contract and not necessarily of copyright.  But EULA's (i.e., terms of use contracts) are very hard to enforce and don't tend to stand up in court (if they ever get that far).

babyblue, I think your teacher may have  been talking about trademarks, not copyrights.  If they're not enforced, they break down (like Kleenex--the company tries very hard legally to prevent the use of the term Kleenex to refer to other facial tissues, because it will lose its trademark if the name becomes commonly used that way.  Other examples are Scotch tape and Xerox.)

Well, I was half asleep, so maybe he did say trademark. But I could have sworn it was copyrights. Oh well. I'll pay more attention next semester, lol!

As this discussion has continued and is now on the matter of copyrights and how they are automatically granted by law for the work we undertake to create; I return to my original state and position:  The EULA is extra-legal because of the pre-attachment of copyright ownership for all content made with Body Shop and in .package files by EA.

The EULA is the foundation of the "legal argument" that seeks to directly involve EA in this matter.

The point Kathy raises is not a matter which is not germane to this topic, but rather one that should be raised by the original mesh/texture creators on these other sites.  Whereas it may be unscrupulous or unethical or amoral, it does not directly adhere to the matter of the legal right of pay-sites for content for The Sims 2 to exist.

I am not poo-pooing the matter, but it is not my fight to fight.  Nor is it in any way right for me to impose my moral or ethical views on another, there is a name for that, it's called tyranny.  Something which I cannot believe is ever right.

So first and last, if we discuss only the salient matters, it boils down to the same questions: do they or don't they have a right to exist under the law?  do we or don't we own the copyright on our own work? do we or don't we have the right to share or sell our own work?

It doesn't matter that some people don't obey the law, this is the case with every law every constructed by the mind of man.  It bothers me not at all that someone out there right this minute is breaking a law.  It has ever been this way.  All that matters to me is how can I obey the law and defend my rights to my creations, when a large section of the community is being moved to believe I have no rights to my own work since some leaders in the anti-pay-site movement choose to express an interpretation of the law that contends I have no rights to my own work because of the EULA in complete defiance of existing laws in most nations.

Interesting thread to read.  But, in my humble opinion, if EA would make decent items for our Sims and include them in their EP's some people may not support paysites.  Another opinion is that the "stuff" packs they put out between EP's are not worth the price half the time.  Seems to me they take items they have already created..do a little change here and there and voila...new item when in reality it is old with new knobs, colors and just maybe they think we are too stupid to see it.  Most of the items, including clothing, belong in the 50's, 60's they haven't passed the millenium yet.

Now for the paysites....ever notice that at the paysites they offer "free" items..usually the ones that are not popular and quite ugly..except maybe for some meshes?  I stay away from them for the most part.  I stick with InSim and MTS2.  I have tried making my own things and forget it; I suck at it, plain and simple.  But whether a pay site or a free sight, kudos go to the designers and modders for all their hard work amd the time they give of themselves to make the game more interesting, etc.  However, I would rather donate to sight like this where I can be involved in the forums and download nice things from our wonderful designers and modders.  Speaking of which another donation will be on it's way soon .  Copyrights and contracts with EA bore me and since I am not breaking any rules, I really haven't anything to say about it.  You all said it greatly throughout the thread.

Beos I hate to say it but I don't think this should have anything to do with the EA. This to me is a simple matter of common decency and respect. It doesn't matter to me if it's pay or free I would fight for someone wronged in either situation, and I have several people know this. Like I said it's one thing to share a file...we all have shared a file with friends so I'm not going to pass judgement on those who do, I have a mirror. Weather it's music, desktop wallpaper, etc...but to rip a file apart, to claim the work is wrong. We have a right to disagree with an idea, to fight against that idea. We have 0 right to attack or try to destroy someone just because they believe differently than ourselves.

Then, I must beg to disagree with you PegasusDiana, if it does not involve EA, then it is a personal vendetta you describe.

It must involve EA, for thereby hangs all our work.  For if EA owns all our work the moment it becomes a .package file, then none of us may so much as whimper when our artistic rights are abused by others.  We, none of us, pay or free, would then have the right to defend our "rights" or anyone else's for the content you would wish to defend and the artist you would wish to defend is now dispossessed of all rights to his or her work.

One cannot turn this one way or the other to suit one's agenda.  The basic question we all must face and answer before any action we undertake is made in the name of "justice" is "Does EA own all our work?".

If it does not, then pay-sites ARE legal, and our arguments have substance.  If it does, then pay-sites ARE illegal, and we all of us are dispossessed of all our rights and all arguments are pointless.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I personally don't have a vendetta against anyone. I do have a vendetta as to what is being done on several of these paysites. I do not believe EA ever intended for anyone to make a profit off their content or they would have charged licensing agreements from the get go and only allowed certain people access to the tools. I have never purchased paysite content and shared it because I personally have never thought two wrongs make a right. I will however not judge others who do.

For me, it comes down to which set of laws holds the most weight.
And seeing as everyone signs a EULA by their own free will (and there by, if you ask me, signs away the right to all the "tools and materials"), I think that any claims EA/Maxis might have on 'our' CC will be approved in a court.
But I really don't think they are going to use their advantage to do something else than stop paysites. They want us to create and share and have fun; because then we are happy customers who will by the next EP as well.
They just don't want people earning money from doing something illegal.

The validity of any contract comes down to the moment of agreement.  If at the time of agreement you do so "without prejudice", then you agree totally and in a committing manner.  However one can agree to any contract "with prejudice" that holds one in a state of partial agreement to clauses in the contract, but reserves the right of the signator to reject those terms of the agreement, in part or in whole, that are not to his benefit or liking.  This is a form of agreement that is fully permissable under the law and is a protected right of all people.

I have no especial concern in this matter but that of my rights to my own work.  Unfortunately for me, this matter is so intertwined with the matter of my rights that I must argue for a larger cause than this small thing of my own rights to my own work.

I have strong reason to suspect that the shareholders and executives of EA have a very clear idea of how much money is to be made from custom content.  There is abundant evidence that they clearly understand the community that has grown up around their games.  I do not think it is without reason that they have themselves engaged in a similar strategy with the release of "stuff packs".

Corporations do not undertake the expenditure of developing new products that are unmarketable.  Ergo, EA knew precisely the market appeal of The Sims 2 and -- in light of the success and manifold sites with custom content for the predecessor game The Sims -- they knew full-well that pay-sites would be in the mix.  I do not think it unreasonable to believe that EA's only concern in this matter is that we continue to purchase their wares and that they continue to make the lion's share of the profits.

I think EA's posturing on this matter has clearly indicated a desire to do nothing that will imperil their profitability.  It is the nature of corporations to pursue their own best interests and to hire lawyers and marketing specialists that provide precisely the right spin to their press releases, statements of policy, and EULAs.  They wish to be perceived in a certain way since it is beneficial to them; but it means little more than the promises of a politician in the long view.  EA is no more our "friend" than Union Carbide was a friend to the citizens of Bhopal.  They assume this posture of the "kinder, gentler corporation" because it benefits them to do so, but, in the final analysis, all they care about is their profits and the contentment of their shareholders.

EA is the exception but sites like Pandora sims have no interest of making content but stealing others and selling them.
Imagine them taking your bodybuilder meshes, putting them onto their site and selling them, you would be as mad as heck and I'm not joking.
They stole one of Numenors creations, Numenor complained to the site and asked to remove it and they replied stuff about the EULA (Which isn't there in the first place) and saying why they're going to keep them.
If anyone can back this up that would be solid gold

I think that this matter doesn't make much sense if extracted by its context; obviously any law/contract/etc. is bound to be discussed in court, but it does not pertain our issue.

Copyrights matter if applied on practical issues, like, e.g. EA wants to sell Beos/Marvine meshes to make money off their work; according their EULA they could, but for sure there's room for a debate, and a judge may sentence that EA has to share part of their income to the authors, because of derivative work and stuff, and despite what EA wrote in their EULA.

But in the present context, the fan community, this doesn't matters: the purpouse matters, not the technical details. Who cares what a judge may sentence? Beosboxboy (or Marvine, or Eric, or anyone else's) work is his work, no doubt about it: the community doesn't need copyright laws to deal with community issues.

Good sense and common courtesy (and gentlemen's agreements) should suffice in a community (any community): it's a social unwritten rule. It's when you came to business that these rules aren't good enough, and you need other, stronger, rules and apparatus to protect you and your stuff - and here's where copyrights and laws come at handy.

Paysites chose the easy way: long story short, instead of dealing with their rights, and business duties, they parasitized community social rules for personal money income.

It's all about mutual respect; if you want to be respected, you have to respect the others in return. If you don't, then you'll be left alone. Enjoy.

(p.s. "you" is in generic terms, not aimed to anyone in particular)

Actually, I wouldn't be mad, a bit annoyed that people would be so foolish as to pay for them perhaps, but not enraged.  Marvine, on the other hand, I can't speak for.

I have no especial problem with paysites pandering my stuff.  I don't even care if they credit me for my work.  Again, I cannot speak for Marvine.

The days of my concern over paysites with my content ended when EA started including body and hair meshes in Sims2Packs of sims exported with BodyShop.  Then it became a matter of deep concern that EA had advantaged themselves of my and Marvine's work.  By this very act, EA made a de facto statement that it owns our work and is furthering the sales of their products through benefit of our work.

In responce to this, we had to make a very painful decision and change our usage policy completely for the benefit of the community, not EA.  I cannot care less if paysites use my content when EA is making so large a statement that it isn't mine in the first place.

Yakov you bring up a point that annoys me... The fact that, even if we make a mesh and port it into the game, it doesn't make the mesh any less ours yet they could take it upon themselves to include it. Now, I was told this so it may very well not be true considering the source, that some wall tv Numenor made ended up in University... or something very close to it. Now again I don't exactly believe the source considering she is a habitial liar but it would it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that they have simply taken ideas from the community and incorperated it into the game after someone else already did it.. which has been done many times.

I like the beoxboxboy's reasoning,it's very logical to me.It doesn't means I'm promoting for pay sites,I never subscribed to any of them.But the most of them have a free area,and sometimes the things are very nice.I have 7 GB of D/L's,all for free.Of course,one can take position for the copyrights of EA games,but I think they can solve the problem themselfs.The most important thing is,this game encouraged lots and lots and lots of creativity.
I love this site and MTS2.

I for one do NOT life paysites. We already pay what 50 dollars for the game, and mabey 20 for expansion packs. Why pay more money, just to get custom clothing. Im sure their are alot of teens out there(like me) who's parents pay for the game, and would not pay extra money so that their child can download off a site. It makes no since. So im all against paysites. I am not one of the people who constantly bash them though(ive seen some of those).

Personally, I have no problem with paysites - I don't run one, and I don't pay to download from them.  There is more than enough to download from free sites, and the free sections of paysites, to suit me.

I also don't download from those "filesharing" sites - I think they do a dis-service by making paysite items look like they are a "must have", somehow better than free site stuff.  I also think they are disrespectful of the creators.  I don't see how you can respect any of the creators if you don't respect them all - the same work and effort went into an item whether it is offered for free or on a paysite.

That said, I do have a question for those who are anti-paysite.  What positive benefit do you see to the community that would result if all the paysites were gone?  

Do you think people would be more inclined to donate to free sites?  I don't, most people won't voluntarily donate if they can get something for free.  Look at the small percentage of downloaders who actually bother to even click the "thanks" button at MTS2 for example, and that costs nothing....

Dr Pixel, People hit the thanks button if they want to. It's a not a obligation.

About the paysites, I know that there are people who work a lot to make custom content for the sims 2 but in this world people are only satisfied when they see money.

But then you start to think : Why should I spend money on something that doesn't even have a physical form?
Normally people spend their money on stuff that actually exist. I'm not saying a file of mesh doesn't exist but spending 5 $ on it? In my country 5$ are 3 euros.
With 3 euros you can buy many things which have physical proprieties ( Groceries )

So I think that everyone should share their creations still being able to leave a mark on the file claiming the creation has its own. And I hope someday EA Games takes some action agaisn't sites like Peggy or TSR.

Teren Rox, I believe you miss the point of Dr Pixel's very keen observation and long experience as a free site owner here: people don't donate in sufficient quantity to off-set the costs of every high traffic free site.  Considering the regularity that free sites have cost over-runs and the short-fall that results in donation drives, should be more than adequate proof of this.

I see no more equity in the support of a free site being shouldered by 5% of its members for every yahoo that drifts in off the Internet, than I see in the forced maintenace of a site by all members regardless of the quality of the downloads.

The reality of the Internet is it all costs more than you want to believe, and someone has to pay for the bandwidth.

Larxene, There is a strong difference between a totally self-made creation and using the copyrighted characters of a fictional work.  no few of the meshes I have made are my own previously copyrighted work imported into the game.  Yes totally mine, copyrighted with all the proper paperwork, etc.  How EA/Maxis can invalidate my pre-existing copyright is a matter for jurists, and not a matter that can be reduced to the same sort of example you provide.  In point of case, the complaint I have careful expressed in this thread.

In view of your illustration, marriage is a contract.  Therefore, based on your reasoning, as I understand it, there could never be a possibility for divorce or independent thought, creativity, or individualism while married.

Well then I want to apologise to Dr Pixel for my '' rude '' commentaries!

I know people don't donate much ( like me ) and should donate to the free sites.
Just say I haven't donate a thing yet because of bad experiences with the internet.

Now that is something that gets to me.

TSR is in many ways a 'bad' paysite, but as a fan site it does many good things (thats debatable..). And it surprises me that the attitude of people there is better then say MTS2. People at TSR click thanks, leave a comment, post in a guestbook and even PM a creator to say thank you - whereas members at MTS2 will at the most click thanks. That thourougly disappoints me...

I agree mostly with your statement, as it is very very true. I think the community needs a major attitude change from bashing creators, to being more thankful and appreciative. Its only a small thing to click 'thanks', but it makes a big difference...



I disagree...I think a lot of people to donate to a sites that are free. But more so when that site is in trouble..just look at NoukieSims and MTS2, when they stated that they needed donations they got a lot.

-----

As it stands, I am against paysites as, from what EA has said so far, it is illegal to sell content, and I also like the idea that all content is shared in the community. But I would rather see an official statement saying that...hopefully it will happen soon :angel:

There most likely wouldn't be such a huge rift in the simming community, for example. Honestly, I don't know of any examples of how paysites have benefited the community at all. It seems they have only managed to divide the community imho, and alienate a lot of simmers who can't subscribe or fork out for donation items because they are either not old enough to own credit cards, or because their financial situation is dire. Let's not forget those who know that paysites are blatantly violating EA's TOS, a point which I'm sure has been mentioned about 200 billion times over...

Going with what Nymphy said, you are right. TSR creators probably get more thanks than MTS2. Why? IMO, 1) People are stupid and unappreciative 2) You can earn 'kudos' at TSR for thanking people and leaving comments (oooh! then you can buy a TSR mug!) 3) There are no benefits to thanking people or leaving comments on MTS2.

To your point about donating to free sites, you are probably right again. People don't like paying more than they have to, but there are a few charitable people in this world (emphasis on few). If there weren't paysites (which I realize is incredibly unlikely), these charitable people could use the money that they would've spent on paysites (that are claiming to have bandwith trouble) to help out a struggling free site. Maybe. I can't say since I'm not charitable or rich :P

If there were no paysites, nobody would pay for content! It's that simple.

You've got a decent point about file-sharing too. It doesn't necessarily respect a creator's wishes. At the same time, paysite creators don't necessarily respect the EULA. And I know that file-sharing can be seen as 'two wrongs to make a right', but IMO, file-sharing is ultimately right. It makes content that (according to the EULA) should be free, free. It's like you said earlier. People won't donate if they can't get it for free.

Aye the pigeon boy speaks sense.

The kudos system benefits the downloader more then the system at MTS2 - kudos at TSR can earn you a free subscription day vs MTS2 thanking a creator gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. Tbh, I really dislike the kudos at TSR...it puts me off from thanking creators, as then they will go pay - like Gelydh, who is a fav creator of mine and I download loads of her stuff, but dont thank her very much as I dont want her to become an FA..

Btw, do you as a creator receive kudos points for people thanking you? Just curious



Liegenshiets (sorry cant spell) forum Garden of Shadows is file share friendly, but the members there still respect a creators wishes. Most pay meshes are included, but free are not. You of course still credit the paysite creator though..I do not agree with editing their content and claiming as your own >.< Er sorry went of on a bit of a tangent there, but I think file sharing is okayish...but giving credit is really important. If PMBD did not give credit to the original creators I would not like it very much..:tongue8:

I've decided I can't be bothered to stand in the line of fire any more just in order to be EA's unpaid legal department.  I no longer run a freesite campaign forum, and I am taking up some of my old paysite subscriptions.

As far as I can see the community is in a far sorrier state now with site-hackings, guestbook trolling, mistrust and bitching than it ever was before this free content activism started and I'm pretty sick of the whole subject now.

If thats how you feel Inge..

Your site and attitude was a nice change from others, you created postive change and supported free sites which needed to be done. I strongly hope that you take a break from things and come back to FFFS. :)

To be candid, I could not care less what "EA says", I can hire lawyers and they will "say" whatever I want them to say too.  The constant reliance on what "EA says" is not a valid argument, any more than hearing only one side of any argument.

If you choose to be biased, then there is no discussion, only the brute force of your will upon another.  Might doesn't make right.  Simply because EA wishes it to be so, doesn't make it fact.

Inge, I full well understand what you mean when you say:



it is, this whole matter has erupted like a cancer in the heart of this community.  I have watched this same sad argument for more years than I ever thought it would endure, and every turn of the screw has been to the detriment of this community.  I am every bit as sick of this division and contention.

I would prefer it have no home on any site I am affiliated with.

EA doesn't care much on paysites. If they did then the situation would be more controlled.
But since the internet is huge and there are thousands of paysites its hard to take action agaisn't all.

So far they haven't even bothered to put one notice on their site confirming their disapproval.  And they have them in their fansite list too.

EA are probably just regarding the whole thing as an extension of the game.  A game about a game, as I am fond of saying.  That's what I think some of the supporters of the filesharing sites feel too - they're having so much fun dressing up as pirates they'd be devastated if all the paysites became free sites and they lost their reason to do it.

Thanks for saying that, but I am afraid there is no Federation any more.

I think these points are mute now. I wrote a letter the other day about EA, questioning their taking of free CC from the community, community ideas and basically doing the same thing. Selling CC for their own profits. Then I was told it was a hypothetical situation so I called to clarify what I had written.

From my conversation, it looks like SPORE is being delayed because it was supposed to be like SIMS and you could make CC, but because of what's happened with Paysites that won't be happening. Or if so it will come with much stricter guidelines. Nor does it look like SIMS 3 will be coming with the possibility of adding CC with the way it is now. It too will either come with much stricter guidelines or one possibility is it will come with licensing agreements to reputable companies looking to get ahead that can be of benefit to both parties. Not forums or websites. IE the company is dividing into sections to see this happens for quality control.

I never knew some of these websites that host donations, subscriptions were being accused by companies and designers of stealing their work. (This one is for freesite and paysites)  Some designers have apparently been complaining their clothing, their logos that are trademarked work are being taken and used as CC without permission. Examples: The GAP, Amercrombie and Fitch, McDonalds, etc...which most probably wouldn't have minded, and probably would have linked to the work, but it was done without permission.

Accused of keeping stuff posted on their sites and refusing to remove it when the creator and website split apart. Accused of making a profit off free content creators by stealing their work to sell. Having a lot of disputes with credit card companies.

Something I laughed about, then had to apologize because several of us also found this but haven't said anything. Some are taking object files from websites that distribute their work for free to the 3d community, and wish it to remain free to the whole 3d community. Well several have been making it work for the sims, claiming the work and selling it. Sorry I can't post a phone call, but any of you are welcome to call and speak with EA legal or corporate to voice your own opinion or just talk with them, very friendly people.

Just something that was said to me: There are over 20 million world wide that play the sims, probably less than 5 million go looking for CC. Most are content to play with what they have. And since most of those 5 million "supposedly" already purchase CC then they won't mind purchasing it from EA or one of their affiliates right?

I don't think your going to either. I got the feeling they are so disgusted over what has happened and all the drama, that they are just going to ensure it doesn't happen with any of their other games. But, I was also told they are gathering evidence...so who knows what actions they are going to take if any. I'm sure it takes time to subpoena pay pal records to see how much of a profit has actually been made, verses being used for bandwidth, etc...

PegasusDIana, I know you believe what they said to you, but if you look back at my posts on this topic as early as May, 2005, I was saying The Sims 3 would be a closed system; how did I come to understand this?  Because as a shareholder of ElectronicArts, I listened to the demands of the other shareholders for more profit from secondary sales.

To be truthful I don't know who or what to believe anymore. This whole thing has gone off the deep end on both ends does that make sense? I think in some ways EA themselves have fueled it in thinking a little controversy=sales. I personally don't leave nasty comments in paysites books. I would never post or share anything I have purchased. I would never consider attacking a paysite's website. I have seen both sides do some very ugly things to each other. The only thing I have ever done is contacted EA to let them know I think the selling of CC is wrong on many levels and my reasons. Actually I contacted them not tech support, EA legal first to ask if selling CC was legal or illegal and was told it is illegal. I was also told at that time that EA is aware that several of their own employees are selling CC or working with websites that sell it and it was going to be dealt with. Then, I told them my feelings on why I thought CC should not be allowed to be sold and many of the things that are happening now where in my reasons. We have a war going on within the community and neither side is actually listening or talking to each other. Inge came up with a fantastic idea to help support sites that said they were only doing it for bandwidth. Nouk also did it right in starting a petition. That's how you bring about change, contacting companies, petitions, etc...not in the way it's being done. I have read and agree with many things you have said. But, I also agree with many things that have been said on the other side of the coin as well. You are also probably right on this one too. I said it when they called back in the new CEO, and read who he was...he is the clean up guy, just like Harry Stonecipher is. People know when he's called in there is going to be some division in the company. After that is finished a lot of people are going to loose their jobs, be laid off. That's what they do, they get the company back on track and making the profit they think they should be making.

Another point I wanted to bring up is this -

Everybody is fond of quoting the part of the Eula which says you can't sell custom content for the game, which it does in fact say.  Although to be honest, it would be difficult to prove, legally, that most paysites are in fact selling the "content" as opposed to simply selling access to the site, except those few sites that do charge by the piece.  

However, everyone convieniently ignores the part of the EULA that says you are not allowed to "disassemble" or "reverse engineer" the game contents.

Simply put, this means you can't pick-apart the game files in a hex-=editor or by other means, to see how they are put together.  Without doing this, NONE of the game editing tools like SimPE or any of the mesh import/export tools would be possible.

Now, like paysites, this is an area that Maxis/EA chooses to look the other way on - but, the truth is that the vast majority of Sims2 sites, whether free, or pay, are in violation of the EULA in one way or another.

The only sites that are strictly in compliance would be ones that offered content made using ONLY the Maxis supplied editing tools - meaning clothing, makeup, and hair "skins" for use on original Maxis meshes ONLY (no custom body/hair/accessory meshes), Custom lots using ONLY Maxis made objects (not even user-made recolors of Maxis objects, let alone objects with user-made meshes), and custom walls/floors made using Maxis HomeCrafter.

Hacked objects?  Custom Careers?  New animations?  No way!  Almost everything you all love to download is in violation of the EULA.

Remember that when you ask Maxis to enforce their EULA...

hear, hear! well said, Dr Pixel.

I have been singing that Cassandra's song for the past four months!

I will say in reality not even 5% donates. This site alone, which has almost 220,000 members has only received %.003 of the members donate. This is total number of donators. People who only donate once or people who donate monthly.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make all along.  It was all very well encouraging fellow players and creators to rethink pay content at a community level, but once everyone started hassling EA to get involved I got an ominous feeling that it would all end in tears.

But why would EA/Maxis go to court against people who (for to personal gain) try to make the game more fun to play for everyone?
As I see it, it turns into a lawsuit only when people make money from it. Because then it turns into a more sensitive matter, seeing as EA (as a company wanting to make a profit) would rather have people giving money to THEM, not some paysite.

pickpock, all contracts, even a EULA stand as a whole item.  Either they are valid totally, or the are invalid totally.  It is really that binary.  Under the Uniform Commercial Code - the body of federal law that governs all contract law in the USA which is where this EULA will be tried and enforced - if the lawyers of EA do not enforce EVERY SINGLE CLAUSE, then the EULA is invalid, ergo, paysites are legal and valid.

It is really that cut and dry.

You pull the pin on the hand grenade, it goes off. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Well, isn't it still a point of EA wanting to take it to court or not? I mean, I think they have stated that they have an interest in wanting to do away with paysites, but if they don't want to make a lawsuit against the custom career &Co people, who'd make them?
I realise that this could be a good defense for the paysite people, because they then can point at EA and the other 'violators' of the EULA and say: they're doing it too! But they're getting away with it, but I still hope that the EA lawyers are gonna come up with some legal mumbo jumbo making everything but paysites okay ;) Cause as far as I see it, it'll be in the company's best interest.
Might be wishing in vain, I know, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens I guess.

it doesn't work that way - they take it to court, the judge levels a ruling.  The judge's orders will be constrained by the letter of the law. under the Uniform Commercial Code, there is no leeway, no room for opinion, no grey area.  The judge will say it is valid or it isn't.

If the judge rules it is valid, then the court will issue a cease & desist order to all parties, if the lawyers at EA choose to not enforce the full EULA, then the court will rule that the EULA has been voluntarily abandoned by EA, rendering all agreements invalid.

I find it difficult to believe that a major software company would voluntarily void its own EULA.

The law is not something which one can afford to be naive about.

Alright on the naïve part, but I still like being an optimist.  And I can admit I know next to nothing about legal matters. ^^

I know most people don't share this opinion, but getting rid of the paysites are worth taking some risks. And sooner or later, this would have happened anyway. EA couldn't possibly have turned a blind eye forever.

But right now, what I think is the most probable action the legal side is going to take, is just to let this die down. Seemes like it would be the safest route to take.

You are making the assumption that paysites are taking money out of Maxis' pockets...

I would be more inclined to think that those people who can afford to subscribe to paysites can also afford to buy every expansion and "stuff" pack that comes out.

My real point is that you can't selectively use part the EULA as a reason to crusade against paysites while ignoring the rest of it.

No matter how you interpret the EULA, it (like all EULA's) is designed to protect the financial interests of Maxis/EA, it is NOT designed nor intended to protect the rights of the "end user" of the game.

Please don't take any of this to mean that I am not in favor of free sites, I certainly am.  Everything I have made is available to download for free, and if you read my "terms of use" it pretty much says "take this stuff and do whatever you like with it".  It's just that whenever I see the word "EULA" pop up as a reason to be anti-paysite, it makes my eyes glaze over.  If you are against paysites, fine - but don't pretend to be defending the EULA when you really don't support it at all.

In any case, I too fear the end result as being that paysites will be shut down, and free sites along with them too.  As BeosBoxBoy points out, Maxis can't legally do anything else.

Either that or they may just let it go until Sims3 is released, but not allowing any user-made content for it at all.

Just as they have done with "Sim Stories".

EA should be gratefull for the sites ,pay or free,it's PR for them.I wouldn't play this game without Eric's Insimenator or Inge's schrubs,not to talk about the CC created by very talented people like Beos,Kavar,etc.etc.etc.If they won't admit CC for Sims3 I 'll not buy the game.I don't understand the obsession with anti paysites,if you are against-just don't buy!I never do.
The Maxis clothes and furnitures are-unfortunately-very uggly,so are the hair styles and many other aspects .Sims are getting tired too fast,need the bathroom too often,what would I do without the hacks?How could they run a bussiness?I would play it for some weeks and goodby.I don't even know if the creators are aware of how much they helped EA to sell the game.The creators should get payed by EA!
And you,the ANTI people,cool down,try to take it out on something else.You are creating the swinging pendulum phenomena!
If EA would forbid CC,they would lose,but I (and many others)would lose too.I would miss playing this game!

Many people are anti-paysite because of all of the crap that has been pulled by them (and not in content, mind you.)  The little scandal about a few other paysites sharing customer info (a.k.a. the filesharer witch hunt), for example, is one reason I could care less if they ceased to exist at this very moment.  At the time, I was actually considering using some leftover birthday money to get a few hairs until I read up on all of those paypal/subscription issues.  No one wants their personal info shared among perfect strangers!  (To this day, I'm still glad I put my money in the tank where it belongs!)  

This is the way I think of it:  For some, being against paysites is just a natural reaction.  It's always been human nature to be highly critical of something we'd have to give money in order to receive.    (Well, that's what my original reason for being anti-pay was.  That was "many a moon ago."  :smile bi:)

This whole issue is still very frustrating to me.  Even when I first got back into sims over a year ago, I never could understand how someone could actually pay for something that would probably end up being deleted anyways.  (And not being able to get it again without the possibility of forking over more cash...)  It's not worth all of that trouble to me.  I guess when money's tight, one tends to think more practically.  (Trust me, I think I'm one of the few people in this world that hates money more than death, and would be willing to throw it away at a simple request... but I know that I need it if I plan on living day to day.  :lol:)

First, I want to stress I am not anti-free-site, nor am I anti-pay-site, not anti-anything.  I am going to speak the cold hard facts of life.

On the matter of businesses sharing information about customers between one another, that is a perfectly legal -- albeit morally suspect -- thing to do.  Only governments are constrained by privacy laws.  When you consider the vast array of spy-ware that is grossly proliferated on the Internet, the fact should become readily clear to you.  Even EA engages in this sort of crap.

On the matter of "customer's rights", it is perfectly legal to exclude or revoke privileges -- note the word "privileges" -- to gain access to a businesses.  Only when it is done for reasons or race, religion, ethnicity, or nationality does it become a matter that has any legal "meat".  Yet even there it is nearly impossible to win a legal contest since the laws are so heavily biased in favour of the business.  Even EA will block a member from the use of their site for various reasons.  I have been banned from the Exchange and the BBS since April, 2005, when I posted a legitimate complaint that TS2 was far short of the promised mark and suggested a boycott of EA until they came through on their promises.

This perception that EA "likes" us or is "our friend" has to end.  As a former EA beta-tester, I can assure you they want NOTHING but your money for a game that will eventually be deleted off your hard drive any way (to paraphrase TenshiiAkari12).  In the cold, hard light of facts, EA and pay-sites are both on the same footing here; however, some things that are categorised as "pay sites" by the extremists within the anti-pay-site mafia are in fact not.  A donation gift is not a "pay item" any more than the Red Cross giving you a T-shirt for donating blood is a "pay item".

The up-shot of all this anti-pay-site sentiment has been to the detriment of all artists, free and pay.  I have been forced to contend with defending my rights to my own work in the centre of this debate, I have actually consulted lawyers, spoken to judges, and done my very best to remain in the right of the law.  I think that there is a great deal of fantasy and naiveté being pandered as truth and fact in the anti-pay-site argument, and, now as the dragon begins to wake, all sites are in deadly peril because of this insane cannibalisation of the community.

As an artist who has donated 10s of 1000s of hours to this community and this game, I can not express my disgust when I see sentiments expressed like "it is worth the risk".  Obviously, I am not alone in this sentiment, but I am candid enough to say it.

As for me, since it is glaringly obvious that this has never been about logic, reason, the rule of law, or discussion, I am through with this, I wash my hands of stupid, vendetta-driven suicide of the Sims community.  You will be able to identify me in the future by the sound of the laughter.

I've never used a paysite, let alone even seen one.  I found out about InSim and MTS2 by word of mouth.

Beos,I love your work,and I'm sorry you have to deffend it.I know you are not ANTI anything,artists never are.
But I wander what the militants anti pay want to achieve.The swinging pendulum phenomena is - everybody can have sim sites  -versus - nobody can have sim sites.
It's bad sites publish info about the members,that's the uggly thing about Internet and that's the why I'm not using Paypol.But in this argument,creativity suffers,negativity kills creativity,the attention goes to the war.
People like me needs visual satisfaction-nice and various types of bodys,build things,furnitures,etc.the creative part of the game is very important.
EA should commit suicide if theyr game shouldn't admit CC.

I have been following this discussion for some time now, and i usualy keep quiet. I`m more of a lurker than a talker. This is mainly because i`m shy of writing in English as it is not my native language so i appologise in advance for anny bad spelling. Over the last few month this has gotten realy ugly.
People are slandering eachother, attacks on sites and so on. I love this game and i love this community, i sometimes spent more time on the forums than actualy playing the game. I would hate to see it go down the drain. But that is what is going to happen if both sides don`t back down. Dr pixel, BeOsBoxBoy and Ingejones are so right. I`ts like when you were kids, playing with your toys with siblings or friends. as soon as you start to fight and bash eachothers skull in , your mother would take the toys away to restore the peace. I`m afraid that is exactly what EA is going to do if this doesn`t stop.
And we will all be left with nothing, like Inge said this will end in tears.
As a community as far as it still existst we are all gonna have to learn to play nice again, even if it it means you do not agree on some points, or we will all be sent to our room without supper.And please people let`s not forget what the fight s about , a computer GAME that is surposed to be fun and not envoke this pixelwar. I am ofcourse talking about the war between the paysites versus anti paysite not the discussion about the artists copyrigts to their own work wich is another discussion on itsself. Are these pixeldolls realy worth it, fighting,slandering, badmouthing, and hacking sites over? Again i love this game but this is mostly because of CC and making the game to your liking with it.I worship those people who make this possible,all the great creators out there.And I am pretty certain a lot of players share this vieuw.
Don`t destroy it because you have to be proven right no matter what side you are on.I will go quietly back into my luking corner but I had to get this off my chest.

I HIPPAA those remarks!  :P

After following a link to this specific post, I have to say that this pretty much sums up my attitude about this whole thing at this point. The more I read and hear about this stuff going on the more I get sick of it all. And it's not like it's AVOIDABLE at this point, the crap is spread universally all over the bloody "community".

It's no wonder I can't even be motivated to do anything Sims related anymore, because every time I open the freaking web browser I'm suddenly immersed in debate, etc and waste my time trolling through it to get to some thoughtful, interesting discussion. Perhaps it's just time to shelve the bookmarks to all but the few forums I frequent and can still enjoy and just forget about everywhere else.

*jfade headshakes, headdesks, sighs, and walks away...*

I'm not going to go through all of these posts because I've been reading discussions on this topic for a little while now, so if I say something that's already been said, forgive me.

I've been very much a lurker in the sims community for a long time now. I've been playing on and off since the sims 1 days.

To me, this whole pay site argument is circular. The pay site owners feel that they should be compensated for spending long hours creating content. Fine, whatever, but that means you better give me something worth spending my money on, treat me with some respect, and kindly address any issues that I may have with your work, gaps, ect., as long as I treat you with the same respect, and even at times when I don't. As a "business" it is your responsibility to keep the paying customers happy, and pay site owners, from my experience, see it the other way around.

On the other hand free site owners, not all, but some, have this attitude of "well I'm free. I can do whatever I want, and if you don't like it leave." Then a month or two later they want donations. Sure I can donate to you and still have access to all of your content without having to go through "pay walls," but you're driving away people that help keep you afloat in the same way pay sites do. You're angering those that could potentially help you.

To those of you who love to throw in a hobby as a way to justify pay sites, let me use an analogy that's similar to the debate. I'm in school for music business, so I spent a lot of time studying copyrights, intellectual property, and the like.

As I'm sure many of you know by now the RIAA has spent tons of money going after illegal file sharers. Pirating didn't start when Napster came along, that's just when it got out of hand. Like EA will, the RIAA just sat on it until they decided to do something.

Now in today's climate, let's say I take a Bjork song. (For this example Bjork will be EA) It's been copyrighted by her, her publishing company, her production company and her record company. The copyright says that I cannot use ANY part of her material for any type of financial gain. I, (the CC creator in the example) decide I'm going to make a remix of that song and sell it for $2. At this point, I've taken her work and used it for financial gain, but the RIAA does nothing about it.

A year later the RIAA sends me a subpoena to appear in court. During the trial I state that I spent hours perfecting the remix and thought I should be compensated for my hard work. Of course I'd lose and would have to pay X amount of dollars.

Just because the RIAA took a year to get to me doesn't make what I did any more legal than it was when I was sued. Same thing with the sims. Just because you spent hours making it and dragging your butt through the mud in frustration doesn't make it legal. You're still held to the terms you agreed to when to installed the game, which included not selling CC for personal gain.

That said, I don't hate pay sites, I'm just not going to spend tons of money on them because I can get better content for free, and unless I choose to donate, I won't have to deal with any snotty creator who can't take constructive criticism. (Not that all creators are snotty, I'm just making a point.) If you choose to sub to a pay site, fine. If you don't, fine. It's your money to throw away as you wish. Just don't come whining to me when that Peggy hair you bought makes your sim's head look like swiss cheese.

This is a really horrible arguement going on here. The cc that you all make is so fabulous and makes playing the game possible.I think my interest would have been over a long, long time ago if not for the work of everyone who makes beautiful objects and sims to replace the hideously ugly maxis content I don't think that it is unreasonable for people to want a little recognition for their work, and to some extent it is also reasonable to maybe get a little monetary reward. Is there no possibility that creators who need to be paid could come to some agreement with EA where EA actually buys their work from them and then offers it for sale as EA product listing the artist as creator?
It seems to me that this would be an arrangement that would suit all. Creators who want to do this as a career could get paid for their work, EA would, at last, have truly creative people working for the game, who were artists and not just computer nerds, and those who just like to make things for other simmers could still offer their work for free.
EA must know by now that their games just would not sell as well as they do if it were not for all the fabulous stuff available out there that really has very little to do with them. I think that if you all used your time and energy in this direction instead of arguing about the intricacies of patent law, etc. something positive and enriching for the whole simming community could result.

This discussion makes no sense for me. We had the same discussion on my site and I closed the thread.
Why can't we just play the game and be happy, that so many creators are spending their free time to make custom content?
Nobody is forced to pay for downloads!
So why this kind of "war"?
It makes me really sad, that this boring discussion is the reason for some good creators to quit their work!
We should think about that.

I agree with engelchen. Somebody should close this thread rigth now. I am living in a free environment and it would be much better without lawyers.

Of course the EULA is for protecting EA rights, not users', who ever has discussed this point?
Who cares about EA rights? I care about my rights, that are not being mocked and conned.

And of course a site needs money. If I can't afford having a site, I will not.
Or, I will search for an income that allows me to run that site. I can sell something. Fine: now I have a business; smaller as you want, but still a business.
I make a choice.

Now I have to make another choice: selling stuff I can prove I own, with all the annoyances pertaining a business, or go naive and be ready to face the resulting consequences.

The point is that I have to make a choice.

Another point is that noone is forced to have a personal site for sharing their creations; anyone can upload their creations on the Exchange for free. It sucks, I know, but it's completely free.

The money I need for sharing my creations are for having more fun making a site that I like the most, for having a better service on files, for having a personal forum for my friends, without annoying ads and popups... in a nutshell, I do not need any money at all for sharing my stuff.
Again, I have to make a choice.

This "pirate" movement is mostly against people who want every pro (and no cons) without having to make choices, who never do anything to protect their possible rights in the proper way and toward the proper antagonist, and who prefer instead the easiest way to cheat (only a bit, so it can't be bad, right?) on the other community members, and eventually blame those who get aware and complain about.
This choice was easy to take, yeah: the first and only one.

And yes, of course the good ol' days, when all were friends and all those square pegs in round holes shut up and stay hidden in their basements, were oh so good and funny.
Right, shut up, hide the rubbish under the carpet: this will be a problem only for that stupid who will dare to lift the carpet and revealing the mess; who cares how that mess were generated, and how much rotten is now?
Ostrichs should be the merriest living forms in the world.

The reason I mentioned about the EULA is because the pirate movement uses that as it's basic argument against paysites.

You're right, from our end this is all about choices.

My main complaint against the pirates is that they wish to remove choices from us if they don't approve of those choices.

I choose to let Maxis worry about their EULA and any violations of it, they have a well paid legal team and they certainly don't need my help, nor anyone elses.

I choose to respect the time and effort that someone has put into their creations, whatever their reason for doing it, whether or not I like the end result, and whether or not I approve of they way they want to distribute it.
If they don't want me to have it without paying, then I won't have it.

I myself choose not to pay to download Sims items - but other people are capable to decide for themselves if they do wish to pay for something and who they want to donate to, they don't need me or anyone else to decide for them.

I am completely bored with all this paysite drama now. I don't pay for it and won't pay for it however this has gotten completely out of hand. Someone, Dr Pixel I believe, pointed out that anyone who has modified the game has broken the EULA and this is true. So in short all sites, free and pay, are screwed. As much as I love or loved this community the last 6 months or so has caused nothing but grief for many people and have caused them to say to hell with this community and for what? Because someone has a pay file? Boo-freaking-hoo. I support free sites, I always have and always will but with this crusade continuing as it is we are pushing a disrespect for all creators, whether they be for free or for pay, and it has become sickening.

If someone is willing to pack up and leave because people support pay sites then they obviously weren't involved with the community for the right reasons. Pay sites have been allowed since the sims 1 days. They won't just go away. People seem to think the the world is wrong just because people don't agree with them. It's usually my way or the highway and that's the problem.

Very well said!  I was just thinking this a few minutes ago, then saw your post.  ;)



Like I said above in my post, those were some of my original reasons.  As of right now, (Like kathy) I no longer care as much and still won't pay for CC.  Sites can disappear if they want to, but I sure won't cry about it any longer.  (Besides, my laptop is doing enough of that for me.  It has its share  of downloads to the point the game just breaks a random file and will not open...)  I could reiterate this all day:  It's just a game.  I have more important things to worry about now days, instead of having to worry about not being able to get content from someone who doesn't want me to have it in the first place.  Sometimes, I wish others would follow suit, but that's up to them, not me.  :icon9:

By stating that, though, it doesn't mean I agree with the censoring of the situation.  It may be talking in circles to many, but closing the topic doesn't really give everyone that wants to state something the chance to participate or ask questions. There are still a lot of people coming into the community just as clueless as ever about this whole conflict on "free vs. pay."  I know if someone were like me, they'd want to know what's up and choose what they want to avoid.  ;)

Are people really not participating as part of The Sims fandom b/c of arguing whether or not website should charge for custom content??   And all this time I thought that the rivalries and jealousies between teams of custom content creators w/in the Sim City fandom  (there's a weird but hot and ongoing controversy about the inclusion/exclusion of dependency files in SC custom content) was pretty goofy.  

Oh well, as long the games themselves aren't busting my computer, I appreciate what everyon contributes but I'll enjoy the games whether or not they do!

my opinion is this - i personally would not suscribe to a paysite when i cant get just as good items for free.
i find it a little greedy of some people to charge when it is perfectly possible to do it for free - there are many free sites out there to back up my thinking on this!
i think the debate about whether is legal or not will go on forever with ea legal doing very little about it until sims 3 comes out then hopefully they'll make it clearer what thier thoughts are ......

i dont disaprove of pirate sites - it is true that ea have confirmed they are not breaking any laws so i cannot see why they can be condemned so long as they dont claim credit for themselves ... which (in most cases) they dont, every item is clearly marked as to where it came from ...

and thats my 2 cents worth :)

To be quite frank EA isn't confirming or disconfirming anything. You have various people getting varying responses from varying people and even when someone lucks out and gets a response from the same person they contradict themselves so who knows what they have to say on the matter.
 
Frankly I don't care enough to listen anymore. Donate, don't donate, pay don't pay. Just drop the legality of the issue already because obviously this has been going on since the Sims 1 and nothing has been done so it is more and more apparent they either don't care or can't be arsed with taking any "legal action" on the matter.
 
Bottom line it was remotely amusing for about 5 minutes when the paysite content was being redistributed and people were downloading like mad but as usual the drama continues to grow and has sucked the life out of this community.
 
People are growing more and more belligerent with their demands for free content and both free and paysites are feeling the pressure. There hasn't been one site owner I have spoke to lately who hasn't felt the financial impact and are considering alternative means including closing shop all together.
 
Think about that next time you are thinking gimme, gimme, gimme.

I would think that if EA Games actually cared one way or the other then action probably have been taken by now.  Meanwhile it sounds like the webmasters are stressing out over the viability of the fansites.

You know, the whole reason I love The Sims™ and The Sims™ 2 is they provide escape from the bad things in the world. A place to make my ideal world with no crime, no poverty, no death, no prejudice, no ugliness.  In the Sims community, I discovered a huge number of people who felt as I did.  We were all of us battered and bruised enough by the real hurts of this world, and we needed this little thing to help us make it through to the next day.

But nothing good endures.  As with all sorts of fandom, you end up with people who start falling prey to the age old arguments of any fandom: FIAWOL (Fandom Is A Way of Life) and FIJAGDH (Fandom Is Just A God Damned Hobby).  Just like in science fiction fandom, you had people deciding they would make a living at it with exactly the same sort of hateful amateur versus professional conflict.  The same cultish sectarianism as was created by L. Ron Hubbard and his supporters.  The parallels are really quite striking.

I have never been able to reconcile the fact that a thing that has the power to bring out the best in people has equal power to bring out the worst in people.  Maybe, just maybe, I have some stubborn innocence and naiveté left that won't die quietly, but it seems to me that if you are given the choice to behave like a civilised human being or not, the former would be the natural choice.  Facts speak rather the opposite if I measure the data correctly.

So here we stand in the middle of a war zone, a community divided against itself over a game.  Why?  Is it as Inge says: "A game about a game?"  Are we all really so bored and jaded and lacking in real life matters of importance that this can seem important?  What about the starving child?  The homeless family?  The inequality and prejudice of the world?  Have these been solved while I wasn't looking?  I really don't know, it defies all logic and explanation.

People are entitled to their own opinions. Someone doesn't find it important, someone else does. People also make their own decisions. I decide to talk about my opinion and give information about people. What they do after that, is up to them.

Or should we all shut our mouths untill Earth is free of hunger? Ofcourse there are more important things. But they don't have anything to do with this. That argument is what we call a 'dooddoener' in Dutch. It's one of those cliche things people say sometimes.


Sometimes I think people call it a 'warzone' simply because everyone doesn't agree with everyone, and they need to complain about it. If you don't get yourself involved with all the crap that's being pulled (like guestbook spamming or writing annoying letters, to even harrasing or hacking) then you're fine.

The people who pull stuff like that are in a vast minority, and are out to blow this thing up. Will you let them, by giving it constant attention? I made that mistake once too often.

People, arguments can get heated, one cannot convince another. What do you do? You stop talking about it.
But if others still want to talk about it, leave them to talk about it. Don't call the whole discussion a war and keep returing to say that over and over again... mixing yourself someone elses discussion about a topic you don't care for, just to complain about the discussion itself, how does that help you OR them? It just becomes a mess.

Well I have read over this thread and read beosboxboys site. I don't like pay sites, not just because of their outrageous pricing, but because often their content isn't worthy of being in a thrift store rejection pile and if it is, its more then likely stolen from someone else. But we have to remeber, the pay site owners don't force us to buy their things, we choose to buy it, and if we are that dumb or desperate for a virtual object, its our own fault, not theirs. Beosboxboy is right, EA is a company, they get involved it can go really bad. I personally wouldn't care if I lost all the objects or clothes, or hairs 90% of what I download clothes or object wise never looks like it did in the paint shoped picture. You think as a graphic artist I would realise that before downloading it. But I would die if I had to deal with maxis skin tones and eyes. Makeup I need too but I can live without that. So I don't want EA to get involved. Why can't the community just band together and boycott pay sites if they want to bring them down so much? I'm sure this is already happening as I have stumbled across several sites endorsing such a boycott. Its a simple concept, you don't like it, don't buy it. Eventually if a business has no customers or very few, they shut down.

Well PMBD is basically not only urging a boycott and encouraging free sites but is giving an alternative for those who feel they "must" have a particular item. Its better for all those involved (except the paysite) if people take their business elsewhere or can simply pick up said file for free. There really is no reason to buy cc unless you plan on "freeing it" and sharing it on the booty for others.

I cannot create anything. All my efforts wind up looking like the dog's barfed up breakfast. I have contributed to paysites for things I wanted and did so as my way of thanking the creator. I cannot even begin to understand the amount of time involved in creating some of the wonderful things the Sims Community has offered us. I may be the minority here, but I understand why someone would want to be paid for all their efforts. It is a matter of choice, either you will pay for something you want or you won't. As for EA to actually do something about their copywrite, c'mon, the game has been around for a very long time, and they have yet to do a single thing. I think they know without custom content the game would not be as interesting and their sales would plummet. I think if you created something unique it should be your property and your decision as to whether you sell it or post it on a free site. If yu make a profit, so be it, if your creation is a disaster, so be it. That's the real world.
We all have a choice, and should respect each person's choice.
As for EA, well their product is not the best they could do, but as long as we buy it flaws and all, we are encouraging them to keep putting out less than their best.

I think for me, it's the fact that EA says that you may not profit from selling the custom content, sis of mine. Cover bandwidth costs, yes. Profit, no. And like you, I can't make squat for the game except a mess! I do bless all of the people who can make custom content but I am picky. Some are better than others. For example, I prefer Yakov's work to someone else who happens to be on a paysite. That isn't because Yakov's is free, though that is a bonus, but it's because he takes time and effort to make the stuff he has, he lets his talent shine. If I could pay him in brownies, I would. I think that's how I would pay anyone, though... But, some of the pay content I've seen doesn't appeal because it just doesn't look right in my game, or it breaks my game, you get the idea. I guess my thing is that if you're going to profit from pixels, they ought to be on a game disk. Sorry, you can hate me if you wish, but it will break my heart if you do. We just have different ways of believing, really. I'm not rabid, I'm not out to harm anyone, I'm not even going to spit in your eye if you are pro-paysite. I'm just going to say that I don't think the same way and leave it at that and hope the friendships that I have made because of this game endure.

He's already stated his position... (http://www.insimenator.org/showpost.php?p=792033&postcount=83) ;)

And I was about to input my sentiments on the previous comments, but it seems Paden has beat me to it.  Couldn't have put it any better myself!  :angel:

Of course, EA have yet to test their EULA in a court of law.  It could turn out they would lose if they tried to claim copyright on someone else's work.  Maybe they suspect that would be the case which is why they have not tried to enforce it.  The EULA may be "empty words" written simply to encourage us to share freely.

How can you think Beos is pro paysites when he gives his creations here,for free?

Nouk,I'm not trying to disrespect you,I like your creations,but I understand Beos.I'm playing Sims to escape too,everything is beautyfull and funny in my game.Sometimes I'm reading treads about torturing and killing sims(yes,I know it's a game) and I don't realy want to put those pictures into my brain,so I've learned to avoid those treads.Regarding the pay sites - I couldn't care less,I'm never buying anything only because I 'm not using my visa card on Internet.Some days ago,I found some sim furnitures on a site and I wanted them badly,but I restrained myself.(just say NO,LOL)
I don't think EA will take action against paysites,we have TSR,a huge PR resource for EA games,I'm sure they'll never take action against them.

I've really been pondering and thinking about this and should EA decide to do something paysite's have my sympathy. I don't agree with what they are doing. But, I also don't want to see any harm come to them. Should EA decide to do something, there won't be any cease orders like they are thinking EA has to give them, why? Because it isn't a violation of copyright, it is a violation of contract. A contract we agree too. A very legal contract, that has been tested in court. Not with EA but many other companies and they have won. It is our John Hancock we put on the dotted line when we click on agree, which is also why there is an I disagree button. Paysites could be faced with millions in fines and penalties. Copyright have set fines, violation fees. With contracts it is up to the company to set the amount they feel are their losses caused by paysites. Who knows how much EA can say they lost with 20 million players around the world. I don't want to see that happen to anyone. It's not worth the... "I was right and you were wrong." to do that to anyone, or to wish for EA to do it to them.

PS I've said this over and over, but I'm going to say it again. Ignorance of a contract you agree to is 0 grounds for a defense in a court of law. This too has been tried over and over. The moral of the story is, if you don't agree to the terms of a contract. You don't agree to abide by them. You click on I disagree and take the game, movie, etc...back to the store. Even if the store won't refund your money, the company has too, it's the law.

Unless they can somehow prove that people didn't buy the game or it's expansion packs because of paysites, they can't really claim to have "lost" anything, can they?

Here is a question for everyone, no matter what side you're on:

Suppose Maxis/EA comes out and says paysites are OK?  
Yes, I know about that letter from the EA customer relations, which really doesn't say anything (typical PR letter).   If you look on Sims File Vault you will find an almost identical letter posted to Maxis/EA, and an identical response, that they got several years ago.

I mean an official statement from Maxis/EA.

Would anybody, on any side of the issue, change their mind?

Or, alternately, if they say that paysites are not OK, and must be closed - again, would any of you change your minds?

I really don't think anyone would change their thinking, in either case.

I also don't see any possible benefit to Maxis/EA getting involved in this one way or the other.  I don't mean the "community", or "the anti-paysite movement", I mean Maxis/EA - because that will be how they come at this.

I would donate. I know how to. But, I'm not sure my parents would let me.. *frowns*

They have said the opposite of that already.  If you didn't read their comments then you can email them directly if there's confusion ( but I'd rather you read the responses they've already given).  They don't want CC sold for profit.  It's that simple. There may be legal jargon involved with their explanation but its pretty obvious what they are saying.

As I stated EA has been flipflopping back and forth on the issue as to whether it is legal or illegal. Just because one person is receiving a letter saying yes it is illegal doesn't mean 10 other people aren't receiving letters saying yes it is legal. We have already seen this happen.
 
The more you guys, pro or anti, want to stir the pot and contact EA to bitch about the issue the more you are jeopardizing the custom content you are so fond of downloading and bitching about.

This is my opinion.

I don't like pay-sites. I don't go on pay-sites. I don't buy from pay-sites. I could get better stuff for free here.

I'm not going to waste my days bitching about pay-sites, they are not worth my time. If they wanna go ripping off people that don't know any better, it's the buyers fault for being stupid enough to buy it.

Let them go, because if we get EA involved they may just say that this site breaks the law, because of the hacks, mods etc.

If you don't like pay-sites THEN STAY AWAY FROM THEM! Disregard them, boycott them...

The last thing we need is for EA to enforce the law.

I don't really know too much about the subject, but I do know that I don't want this site, or any other free sims site, sued and shut down.

Ea's response that clears it up rather well.

http://www.noukiesims2.net/EAconfirms.gif



Can we see some letters saying that it IS legal?  (From EA, not letters from paysites own lawyers i mean. I expect paysites to think they are in the right).  

I don't want to stir up the pot, EA has said what the LAw of the land is (as it should ethically be as well) and the community should enforce it without EA's assistance. If they do get involved it may be for a single site to make a point but I don't think it should even go that far. I think by posting paysite material at place's like PMBD for free (unless they would choose to be freesites in which case they would be removed), boycotting paysites to reduce their profits altogether, promoting freesites, and for establishing that paysites in general are wrong (which some people still are unaware).  

If you don't want EA involved ( I don't think anyone really wants that) then discuss it here and put words into actions. I'm sorry if people think its a "sides" issue and that its smarter to be completely uninvolved and chalk it up to being just drama thats "tearing up" the community. Why is supporting freesites and discouraging anti-paysites such an issue to some people?  

You don't want EA involved?  Then stop hiding under a rock and get involved now.  We're arguing this on a 100% freesite!  How can this still be such a scary thought to people here?  I see more people flipflopping on this issue here then I've ever seen from EA themselves.

Its a freesite, stop saying the sky is falling.  Ea games has not gone after a single paysite and they won't EVER go after a freesite.  Why would you think their statements would ever indicate that they would?  If anything TSR by waffling might be a prime target but even then they might be overlooked to go after a sticter definition of a large paysite (Peggy for example).

Why don't you read the entire EULA before you pick through what you want to use to argue your point. If you want to get technical any site that offers material that reverse engineers or raises the games rating would be in violation. That's because it doesn't fit into the great "paysite debate" and people only choose to read and interpret the things they wish to to get their own way.
 
Something of interest Battlefield 2 (http://forums.ea.com/mboards/thread.jspa?sls=2&tstart=0&threadID=240670&start=0).
 
 
Also...
 
Now considering the InSIMenator allows abortion, cutting parental ties which could be used to allow incest and whatever options Eric has in it now that may piss them off, the InTeen allowing teen pregnancies, InSIMadult, SexySims2, SpicySims all with their adult content how are any of these free sites not breaking the EULA?

I just don't understand your argument. The EULA statement is still mostly and always insistant in many places that content should not be for commercial use.



Again as InTeen, Insim, Simpe, etc are not being used commercially. I don't see how the EULA applies to them in away that they have anything to fear.  I also think these programs clearly have many more benefits than any of the "grey" side mods that you are discussing. The only ones who make a big deal about these programs are often sites like TSR who ban links to Insim (and MTS for some bizarre reasons) because of the kiddies (and because they want to discourage people leaving the TSR to get completely free CC and real assitance with questions).  

Again, the point is moot if EA does nothing and if they do anything it will be against a paysite.

In all likelyhood they won't do anything about anything. They are obviously having the same problem with other games and will not even comment on it. If it isn't hurting them then why should they waste the time and resources?
 
Meh.. The entire thing is rather boring and pointless but basically if they wish to pursue the issue they could pursue it against modders as well. Frankly I am tired of all of it, both sides.
 
All of this bickering between sites, creators with their over-enflated egos and community members who think they are entitled to something just because they bought the game can fall off the face of the earth as far as I'm concerned as well. It is absurd that people are spending this much energy bitching over a game, a game that will be long forgotten when the Sims 3 is released.

Well the key point is that any lawsuit would have to be for a reason.  There is no money in suing Simpe or Inteen. How has the Sims been damaged by these mods?  

Likewise if a site like Peggy or TSR which has a steady and regular income from being a paysite then EA would have a motive and a reason (to retrieve all those profits off THEIR game) to go after them.  Plus they would only have to do it once to a big leaguer and other paysites would either go freesite or run for the hills. Also its the most likely in that they would send legal warning letters first before they started actually pursuing it in court.

These issues will continue into Sims 3 so I don't see why we shouldn't be discussing them and fixing the problem before it continues into the next game (where EA is likely to be more proactive and restrictive the next time if its still an issue).

There is no reason why the discussion level has to be at a hysterical pitch though.  I really don't see paysite owners arguing for their existance in here on a freesite so I think the other "party" isn't even at the discussion table.  They simply rarely take part in our community.

By all means if anyone dosen't like the discussion or the "drama" then you or anyone don't have to take part in it.  I don't have a clue why people would take part in a thread that they aren't interested in or one where they've yet to formulate an actual opinion in one way or the other.

Perhaps because these mods have raised the game from a Teen rating to a Mature rating? There is a reason that they won't allow discussion of these mods on the BBS and it isn't just because they don't like custom content.
 
And exactly how are you fixing the problem? It seems to me that people are only adding to the problem. There is no easy fix for this problem and since it has been going on since the Sims 1 I don't see it disappearing any time soon either.
 
People have two choices, pay for content or don't pay for content. Strong arming them and telling them how evil paysites are isn't going to solve anything. Ultimately people have to decide for themselves whether the content is worth the money and decide if they wish to go that route. Why anyone thinks it's their duty to tell people what to do with their money beats the hell out of me.
 
And in regards to your last statement, incase you haven't noticed, I own this site. I will participate in any discussion and in any manner I see fit. The only reason this discussion is allowed to go on is because I am allowing it.

I beg to differ.  

I ran a founding site, The Wooden Simolean, on SimsHost for 5 years.  Although my participation level varied from time to time, I was active on a variety of boards (not including this one, silly me) and egroups for all of that time.

Greg Bennett ran all of SimsHost.  Check the profile for "Chairman Greg,"  he's been here and active for quite some time.

Other than that, why should a paysite owner bother coming to a board to get themselves ripped a new one?  Or they're incognito because they've learned the truth of "Don't teach pigs to sing.  It's a waste of your time and annoys the pig."

Well certainly.  I'm not trying to tick you off Kathy.

The two options as you say (pay or don't pay) is correct.  What I'm arguing is you can change the balance and I think it is having an effect.  I'm not expecting TSR to shut down anytime soon but i think the smaller paysites are feeling the pinch in the wallet.  Either they are doing this for the love of the game or they are doing it for the money. If its for the money they'll probably be rethinking that decision soon as it's drying up.  

I don't see any reason for not being able to voice warning on paying for content as many people (lots of them kids) still don't know, the discussions are often stymied. It probably would make sense the voice it more on TSR then here but that won't happen.

Again you brought up that its a Teen game as it is.  Should paysites be taking teenagers money (or their parents for that matter) if its not supposed to be legal?  Is that fair to the kids?  

I do think the adult content is kept away from the kids in an adequite fashion and I certainly don't see a tons of the modders are from that same age group.  Of course their interests will vary as the Sims can adapt to fit anyone's interest and that's why it has been so successful.

Again I don't think a healthy discussion on the subject is a bad thing.  It's certainly more interesting read then a 7 page thread on "What was your 1st EVER sim called? ".  :angel:

Alright that's two examples. I don't see any posts by you in this thread so again if you want to discuss paysites plz pull up a chair and speak. I'm curious as how it is from the other side. I can understand how before EA made a decision it was a different existence but I think things have changed where its hard to say "I didn't know it was wrong".

Now this part of the arguement is the only one I have an opinion on anymore, especially since I am a mother of two children. It sucks for kids, there is no doubt about it. However, don't children have to learn you can't have everything in life just because you want it or believe you are entitled to it?
 
As a mother I have to deal with that arguement on an almost daily basis. Mom I want such and such... yeah well the answer is no... but wahhhh I want it and I should have it because I cleaned my room or didn't argue with my sister (insert other excuse here).
 
Kids have to learn they can't have everything just because they want it. If they don't learn this early on then we have an epidemic of spoiled little brats who are out of control... wait we already have this.
 

I don't think the discussion is unhealthy per se but I'm bored and Eric won't argue with me.

I don't think Kathy is angry at you, at least I don't get that impression. I just think she's getting tired of the whole argument on both sides. Both sides have done some very ugly things to each other. Which isn't going to solve anything. EA has said to several people they are gathering evidence, so we have to sit back and just let them do what it is they need to do. We also will have to respect their decision no matter which way it goes. People have made it into a my side must win thing like it's a game/competition. Everyone wants thier side to be right. When as Beos has stated over and over...the problem we are not seeing and he's not just saying it against free sites. His comments have been directed at both sides, is that we could all end up loosing in the long run...they could very well just say it's gone too far with the Sims 2 and package the Sims 3 in a way we can't add CC. That would stop both sides in their tracks.

I agree with you Kathy in that people should make the final choice.  If someone has seen all the discussion, heard all the arguments, and still wants to buy CC then let them.  Its a foolish decision (especially if the same files are free on PMBD) but until the paysites themselves are a thing of the past then its going to still happen.  It is harder for kids of course but you are right that its a prime example in that wanting and needing are two entirely different things.

I too am tired but thanks for talking about it Kathy :argue: Its much better then posting in a thread and never expecting to read it again or care about the responses.

Ok thanks.:D  I understand that argument that it may well affect Sims3.  I personally would like the community to work it out internally before EA gets involved but as you say they will make the inevitable decision if they decide to take action and will make key decisions on CC as they develop and release Sims 3.

I think there has been too much damage done in the community for us to work it out ourselves, one of the main reasons I have pulled away from the entire thing. I mean I look at Eric who has been working on the InSIM for 3 yrs this coming November and I hate the idea of all of his work going down the drain because of all the shit that has occurred the last 9 months.
 
Sites are expensive to run, especially large ones. And when you have to struggle to pay your server bills it is a bit discouraging. I think a step in helping the community is if sites such as Peggy were to offer free days. If her site costs are too much for her to handle on donations alone then I don't see why she couldn't say ok after I have made x amount to cover this months bill then the site is free for the rest of the month. It won't happen but it would be a start.

I do agree that any big site can't be expected to last unless they use advertising or get occasional donations from users.  Even freesites with high volume can run up serious bills.  If MTS2's downloads issues can be solved by asking for more financial help then I think they should make their situation more evident and should get the communal support that we all preach.  

But donation packs which require payment and pay cc is the deal breaker for me.  If Peggy went free and paid for her site off advertising or donations she'd be alright by me. "Free days" would be a step in the right decision but would ultimately be something that would rarely be implemented except for paysites on the fence on the issue.

That is a problem in itself.. Communal Support. Now if lets say 5% of users who frequent a site would actually donate and help I think we would see more free sites, sadly this isn't the case. Hence the need for donation drives.
 
If lets say a site has 2 donation sets, reasonably priced or given to anyone who makes a donation, regardless of the amount, and has a fair amount of free content I would consider them a lesser problem than lets say Peggy, TSR, or Rose. While it would still be preferable if they were completely free it still wouldn't seem like they were strictly in it for the money.
 
While until a month or so ago I despised any and all paysites I have now said screw it all. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter to me unless I happen to be bored and want to play both sides of it just for giggles.

I'd have to agree with you Kathy.  I know PMBD would disagree on the donation pack for $$ but if its entirely a free site except for that (AND) the donation items are nice and moderately price I'd probably fold and think it was a decent idea to get something for that occasional $5-10.  After all Holy Simoly has done something similar and its hard to argue that its a ripoff.  

So Kathy you like to argue simply for amusement now? :smt116  LOL Shame on you!! :iconbigg:

By the way your avatar is hot, might as well tell you.:worship:

hahaha I'm bored and Eric is dealing with the kids tonight

I haven't posted in this thread before because I'm in the group which is completely tired of attempting to teach pigs to sing and failing miserably.  I know from experience in similar discussions, which are posted all over the web, including several egroups, that the number of people who can be convinced that the other side has any merits at all is vanishingly small, what we used to call "within epsilon of zero" in Advanced Calculus.  Most of that small number are people new to downloading or creating, so I respond to their requests (most of them are actually nice enough to ask) for information with what is generally accepted practice and what will get them ripped a new one.  I also tell people who are doing the equivalent of shrieking about their "legal rights" or "what they can do and no one can stop them" or whatever to shut up and get a life.  

Your response where you still assume I did something wrong by being involved with a paysite indicates to me you're one of the unteachable.  

Your previous post just annoyed me enough to answer.  Believe me, I'm peeved enough to use some words that you may or may not deserve, but Kathy would be forced to ban me for using, and I respect her enough to obey her rules.  Don't attempt to bait me.  I've "met" far too many people similar to you.

My final position on the whole issue:  Respect the creators' wishes.  Don't post pay site items on free sites or free items on pay sites.  No one has to justify their position to anyone, much less to each individual who wishes to criticize them.

Yeah lets play nice guys.. I'm in a good mood. Don't make me force you into my basement for a beating :)

Ummm ok miros.


So anyway Kathy I'm stuck at work for the last 12 hrs (yes Saturday's are slow and its been a hellish week) so its been nice to actually be occupied on the internet and make the time pass by.  1 hr to go!!   Almost there.  I guess i owe you for it being a bearable day.

In the words of Miros:  Don't bait me.:laugh::D

yay Come do my laundry!

Noooooooo

Sad thing is I have two 6 month old twins to help take of when I get home. Work never ends..... :(

but i do have 4 days off next taking care of the kids... they eventually do sleep.

I remember those days fondly... Luckily I had single births lol. Wait till they get older and start getting into everything.

OOOH!  Kathy!  Meet me over on the Adult board and we'll take turns?

Well Kathy its been a pleasure.  Have a good weekend.

You too :)

Haha...I know, I complained before about threads being derailed, but I couldn't help but laugh when I saw the direction this thread has taken. Believe me, I just had to bite my tongue and show some tact throughout by not saying a word, as I'm quite vicious and argumentative on my worst days! lol

Well, I'm trying not to get vicious.  How about you meet me on the Adult board, since Kathy's chicken?  The safe word is "Gerbits"!

lol at all of you

To get this back on track, have you seen MTS2 recent rule changes, and the e-mail HP got from EA?

http://modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=240944
http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1065

I just checked out the new rules myself... I think it's an alright idea, but that's certainly a lot more things for my poor little brain to remember...  (especially if one has been on a PMBD clothes and hair binge recently.  :smt120 ) I think I'll stick to uploading here for now.  :angel:

And that new email seems pretty interesting.  :smile bi:  Man, sometimes I wish that EA Legal would just go ahead and post what they truly think on the official site.  (yes, I know the email is from the online support, not from the legal department... but I want to see them with a truly solid stance for once.)  All of these back and forth issues with all custom content has me so frustrated now that I could care less on what happens to it... truly sad in my case.  :icon9:

This is my problem as well. With all the flipflopping and what have you I simply could care less any more. Shit the one person who responded favorably to Nouk or Diana gave the complete opposite reply to Ali so I don't know if any of them even know wtf is going on.
 
The rule mts2 posted is the same rule Eric wanted to post a few months back but there seem to be some conflicting opinions on it so it hasn't been enforced.

I'm a custom content fanatic and I do donate to some of the pay sites only because I appreciate what they do. I think people should be able to charge for their creations because the tutorials are out there and people are just too lazy to learn how to do things themselves (myself for example). I like the free sites more because they seem more people friendly and it seems that they truly do it because they love it. Now when I make lots I try to use as little pay content as possible because it's a hassle. I would love not to have to pay for custom content but if that's how people make their money then I say they should go for it.

Also, I read someone said "stupid" people pay for the content, but some of us truly appreciate the time and effort that these people put into their creations.

Another opinion of mine is that if these sites are going to have pay items then they shouldn't be so picky about the free items. I hate that on some sites (4ESF for example) won't allow you to redistribute their free items. Credit is a given. I think if people are too lazy to provide credit then they shouldn't be allowed to use the person's content. But if credit is given I don't see the problem. I don't know much about running a website but if they would allow people to redistribute their free items wouldn't they be able to free up space on their website bringing the maintenance costs down? I don't know...

1) If they're attempting to pay for their costs with ad revenues, reducing the number of page views where the ad is located reduces their ad revenues (or potential revenues).
2) God forbid, the creator makes a mistake in the mesh.  If everyone and his brother is redistributing the mesh, how in heck are you ever going to help downloaders, who may be very inexperienced in sorting out mesh problems when there are 2 or 3 versions out there?
3) No creator worth his or her salt is going to delete his or her own work from a personal site to "free up space."  Be real.  Even if I gave SiteX "exclusive distribution permission," I'd still have a copy on my site.  Poop happens, SiteX closes... you get the picture.

I'm not saying delete all of the original files. That wouldn't make sense. I'm saying to rotate through the free files. They don't have to have all of them at once. Also, it's not that hard to select the files and their mesh for upload. It's not like I'm talking rocket science or anything. I know I received a lot of my custom content through downloading lots. Clean Installer is very easy to use. It's almost dummy proof. I just started uploading lots and I find it very easy to sort through the files that don't belong.

There is really no need to be nasty. I stated at the end of my post that I DON'T KNOW!

Just another thought about the whole redistribution thing... I think that maybe the original creator can coordinate with other sites to host some of their files that way they can free up some space so they won't need as many donations. But whatever, that's just my opinion.

My thoughts about paysites have changed over the Sim years from:

1. Longing for paysite downloads.
2. Finding PMBD and being disgusted by it.
3. Finally stop caring, see the light, and go on a download binge at PMBD. LOL
4. Wanting to put an end to all paysites.
5. Not caring what happens to paysites, just as long as I get pay content for free.

I don't care what the hell happens to paysites. If people are stupid enough to pay for pay content when they can get it for free, that's fine by me. Peggy, Rose, Exnem and all of those other pay creators can be billionaires for all I care, just as long as I can get their content for free. :D

I was not being nasty.  If you wanna see nasty, scroll up and read my previous post about not teaching pigs to sing.  I am not saying you're a pig that can't be taught to sing, like the poster I was responding to above.  

In my response to you, I was stating simple facts in a blunt manner.  You asked, I answered, now you know.

To continue answering:

Please lose the "free up space" concept.  That's only valid for Yahoo! egroups or incredibly small hosting packages that are probably completely insufficient for a Sim site anyhow.  Space on a server's hard drive is cheap.  

The boogeyman of all Sim sites is bandwidth, which has to be paid for as it's consumed or the hosting company shuts the site down until the next month.  You'll notice that Eric's donation drive posts talks about paying for bandwidth, not server space.  The rules about file types and compressing submitted files are to reduce bandwidth consumption, both upload and download, not to save "space."  

Your "authorized redistribution" idea is somewhat similar to having a "mirror site," where if the main site goes down, a secondary site takes over.  All it does is switch around who pays for the bandwidth.  I doubt many people have enough excess bandwidth to host very much of someone else's stuff.  Not a bad idea, just not practical.

Example: I worked for a small company who once agreed to "mirror" a development tool for programmers.  Big mistake.  Their downloaders devoured the bandwidth we needed for our operations and company website.  They were looking for another mirror within days.

BTW, I recommend that the non-creator commentors (which clearly doesn't include SolidGoldFunk, who makes very nice houses) on this thread try actually submitting something, no matter how simple.  Taking something from a concept in your head all the way through the process of creation, import, checking with SimPE or CleanInstaller and in the game, screenshot, uploading, composing the post to describe it and give credit where due is not trivial.  Yes, each step is easy, some ridiculously so, but each step is either crucial to the process or makes your creation more easily used by the downloaders.  When you've done this process at least once all the way through, then we'll talk about who is entitled to make the free or pay decision for my stuff!

I'll attempt answer any questions on creation or submission.  Just ask.  Right now, I'm answering this thread instead of looking for an answer to someone's problem with screenshots.

My "anti-paysite rant," just to be even handed:  If you're going to charge people, your product should be as close to perfect as humanly possible, or you fix it the first time there's a complaint (on technical merit, not artistic).  I'm not the most prolific creator out there, but my stuff works in the game and does what it's supposed to!  

I do contribute to paysites.  I don't contribute to ones with a reputation for shoddy workmanship and not responding to complaints.  I think we all know which sites those are.  I also don't download their stuff from PMBD and attempt to justify taking all of it because some of their files are shoddy.  

If I were going to donate for a particular item, I might download it to make sure it's good quality, then pay for it.

Rosalie A. Dieteman
Software Engineer
Rose/Miros
Former Webmistress, The Wooden Simolean, a SimsHost subscriber supported site

Asking someone to "be real" sounds nasty, especially when I stated from the beginning that I don't know how this works. To tell me to "be real" is making the assumption that I know how everything works. In my mind I was being real. This is typing not talking so it's hard to get the attitude behind the words. I apologize for misinterpreting your mood.

Also, I didn't just come up with this "free up space" concept out of the blue. I read it on one of the sites saying that they need the money to continue hosting the files since they take up a lot of space and of course bandwidth. Why is it such an impractical idea? Many creators have their stuff featured on different websites anyway. Just don't limit your creations to one and don't have the same items featured on too many websites. Sure that means more searching around for us cc fanatics but I think it will be worth it.

I know what you mean about shoddy work though. I think The Sims Resource has some creators with shoddy work. The majority of the stuff there seems okay to me, even though I don't use that site much anymore since they have such strict policies on using items and the creators don't write back when you ask for permission to use their stuff. This takes away from something that people make such as a house or a sim. Anyway, that's another story but as for the paysites... I still think people should be allowed to charge for their content. However, like you said, if they are going to charge then it should be as close to perfect as humanly possible.

To counter your argument that people should be able to donate after they see it works well... I don't think that some paysites would make the money they want/ need. People may get the product and no matter how well it works or how much they love it they probably won't donate. I know I would, you know you would but I don't think people are that honest.

Athena

I don't mess with paysites I donate to Freesites when I can

The number one rule of creative work of any type is "keep a master copy that is 100% under your control."  That's what I meant by "be real."  Anyone who trusts anyone else, mother, sister, best friend, with the master copy is naive.  Anyone who trusts someone they met on the Internet with the master copy is an idiot.



If they don't have enough "space," they're on a hosting package that is way, way, way inadequate for their needs.  I hope part of their incoming donations went to pay for a better package, which got them more "space" and more "bandwidth", rather than just paying for bandwidth as it was consumed.  You usually also get a better price per megabyte or gigabyte in a package, rather than as "overage charges."  

BTW, I started in April 2001 with a Tripod site and about 6 files.  I had more "space" than I could use at the time.  My site was down for bandwidth more than it was up!



Yes, some of the stuff at TSR is shoddy.  There are certain creators that I've put on a mental blacklist, and I just don't download their stuff.  Odds are, they're the same people who can't be bothered to respond to permission requests.

Every TSR creator I've contacted for permission has written back promptly, usually under 24 hours, and most said yes unless they've got an exclusive deal with TSR.  Same goes for items that needed fixing.  Even the ones who have promised TSR exclusivity will let you use their stuff in a house that's posted on TSR (that's the purpose of TSRAA).



That's not what I said.  If I absolutely fell in love with a certain item from a site that I know has a reputation for shoddy work, I'd do my best to make sure this particular item is not shoddily made, even going as far as to download a hot copy of it.  If I can't find any "positive reviews," "hot copies," etc., well, I'm out an item that I might have gained quite a bit of fun from... and the creator is out $2.50 or whatever price they put on the item.  They should have taken better care of their reputation.  You only get one chance to make a first impression.

Rose/Miros

I guess I misunderstood then.

ok, i try again. As to the topic. I do not create sims2 content, i use 3d-programs for other reasons. I am a customer of EA, and the only protection i can get is via their EULA. That's why so many people stick to the EULA arguments, cause that's the only protection they have.

It's not a guestion of money to me. It's a question whether it's right or wrong to claim money for CC - when stated clearly in the EULA that filesharing are ok, sale of CC is not. Nouk has given a good example - her response from EA should be valid enough. That was an answer from EA support on usermade tools.  There is 1 EULA for bodyshop, 1 for homecrafter, and 1 when you install the game. Click, accept and agree.

Reverse engineering is also mentioned in the EULA for bodyshop, i understand this is fully legal for own use, and filesharing, but not for sale.

PS or ETA: Kathy, hope you're in a better mood, i like your avi, i love Inseminator, i am addicted to that toy, and i have fun in the adult-section when i first am there. I am very thankful to the guys who created Inseminator. Straight from my heart that is!



I always thanks the artist of free content, don't clutter anyones guestbooks, are polite and kind.

I can of course only speak for myself, as a downloader of your CC. I rather prefer freesites, in my location or elsewhere in this big world. Free-sites are more polite, and very helpful. I also think they have great content. When someone claim donation from me to unlock a file, so i can download it, it's not a donation, it's sale. I am a bit surprised that creators of skins and other CC support paysites when they create for free themself? Could anyone enlighten me?

I don't see anyone with a physical or metaphysical gun to your head forcing you to download anything, pay or free!

How does the existence of pay content harm you?  What do you feel you need "protection" from?  Would you like to assume the hosting cost for your favorite pay sites so they could become free sites?

Yeah I am.. sorry about earlier.. woke up cranky lol.
 
Thats the thing we don't know what EA thinks. They aren't coming out one way or another. If they think paysites are acceptable I just wish they would say so already. This thing, the entire paysite/freesite debate has put off a lot of creators, both of free and pay content because of this attitude that people have. That they are entitled to content. We pay for the game, we aren't given an agreement by EA that says you will be given cc made by the community. People tend to forget this and then get all snotty and leave hateful messages as which was done to Solander and Kate.
 
Whether we like paysites they do serve as a lesson for the community in a sense that you have two choices, pay or don't pay. If you aren't paying for content you really have no right to bitch at these creators or place demands on them. You should treat those people with respect, at a minimum the same amount of respect you would want to be treated with but too often than not we are seeing an increasing problem of the very opposite happening.
 
When people message me to bitch because the very day an expansion pack is released that the insim isn't updated is a clear sign that people need to check themselves at the door. I try very hard to treat everyone, regardless of who they are, with respect but more and more I am personally feeling hostile and feel like washing my hands of the entire thing.
 
All of this bickering between sites is getting very frustrating. Especially since none of us have any clue as to which way EA is going to lean, if they ever lean. If they announced tomorrow that paysites were illegal then the anti-paysite side would win so to speak and this thread would be closed as it would be moot.. especially seeing as we aren't allowed to have warez discussions per our server companies TOS. But if they rule on the other side, and say that paysites are well within their rights to charge for content then what? Whether any of us like it or not they would be within their own rights and you would have to live with it or continue sharing content thru other means as is already being done.
 
Either way until they say something we can debate this all day and nothing will be done.
 
Also.. please, regardless of someones opinion lets keep this toned down. I don't want to close this thread and I hate banning people. We all have the right to our own opinion, regardless of what it is. As long as people can act like mature adults this thread can remain open. That or I will make my 10 yr old an admin and she isn't as nice as I am. :D

Yeah, what everybody said. :angel:

Now, getting back to the question that Kathy posed in the first message in this topic: So, who has the good stuff? :D

I know there's lots of great stuff among the multitude at The Sims Resource (http://www.thesimsresource.com/) and Peggy Sims (http://www.peggysims2.net/) redefines the word "awesome," but who has some other favorite sites that makes things worthy of my increasingly limited simmish mad money?

Personally, I like the stuff in the Wooden Simolean section at SunSims... but that's a shameless, self-serving plug!

Ok... how about Simsational Sandy at SunSims?

BTW, Greg's my webhost.  Otherwise, I'd be running a half-baked paysite.

I love 4Eversimfantasy, Aroundthesims2, and Raonjena for Raonsims.

I like Reonjena and believe it or not I like Rose from Rosesims. Some people seem to have problems with her, but she's always been very nice to me and treated me with respect.

I don't download from TSR, I used too when I first joined the Sims website and went to looking at their fansites. But, unlike everyone else that seems to get all this great stuff? Everything I downloaded looked really bad in my game, so I ended up deleting it all. I must have chosen every bad creator there was on TSR to download from. lol But, at that time I didn't know who were the good creators and who weren't I was new. Anyway left a bad taste in my mouth so I would never download from them again from any creator there weather I know they are good or not.

Then I found MTS2 and Peggy Sims. Peggy Sims because I downloaded a sim off the EA website and went to look at her site and realized I had downloaded a pay hair, so I donated because I felt bad about getting it for free when she was charging. Peggy's hair stabbed my sims in the back and chest, there was big holes in it, so I only have one Peggy hair left. From MTS I found Rose and Insim. I still have some of Rose's hair in my game as well as a couple early releases of Raon's and that was the last content I paid for. From Insim I found the Sims Mod Board and so I stay pretty much on Insim, SMB, and MTS2. O and I like reading the forums at PMBD, and SFV. But I don't think I've downloaded from the booty, or that I can remember I should say. I find everything I need now on the free sites I listed. Content I not only know I can trust, but I know will be fixed if there is something wrong with it.

I like rose too. Are you talking about rosesims.net? Because she does seem very nice. She's one of the few who responded to my permission requests. Also, Funny from Pimp-my-sims. She seemed really nice as well.

lol Kathy....you crack me up! I have a hell of a time getting my hubby to argue w/ me too sometimes. He's just too nice and prefers to walk away. :smt120

As for the paysites, I feel the same way most people do......if you don't like paysites, don't go to them, don't give them your money.

Yep that is whom I was speaking of. ;) Rose is really good about answering right away and granting permission. She also offers to help if you need it. I remember I found my first tutorial and asked her can I recolor your things? She said whatever you want, I would have said oh my gosh she wants to use my things and this is her first try? Do I really want my name associated with whatever comes of this? hehe I completely forgot about XM Sims and Nouk! I love both those sites as well. You know I went to Pimp-my-Sims once. Then thought oh this must be like the Pimp my thing the kids use for myspace, which means it's just a bunch of things to swipe from others. So, I never stayed. I've been reading about that site again over on PMBD so now when they go back online...I'm gonna go see if they have some goodies for me to snag. lol

Oooh... Raonsims (http://www.raonsims.com/main/main.php) is a new one to me!  I haven't snooped around much yet, but she has some stunning hair styles on her front page!  Incredibly pretty sims, too!  And I guess it counts as a "pay" site because there is some text that hints that there must be some "donation" items around there somewhere.

B'b'but... The Wooden Simolean and Simsational Sandy (which are now sections of Sun Sims) don't count as "pay" sites unless you're watching an old movie. :lol:
(I did put a PayPal begging button on Sun Sims, so in the parlance used on the Ultimate Sims List it would be a "Free*" site, like Insimenator.  The * means that there's a begging button but there's no charge for any of the downloads.)

I think the trick to The Sims Resource (http://www.thesimsresource.com/) is to learn to spot a few of your favorite artists and watch for goodies from them.  Keep an eye on the newer artists, though; I've watched some of the really great artists develop their skills over the years.

Hey, I just thought of one that I still host!  Dincer Hepguler (http://moonsims.asi.org/dh-sims-site/) has a few "donation" items, so he counts as a "pay" site!  He has some great stuff--very eclectic.  You'll see a lot of middle eastern designs on his site because he lives in Turkey.  I haven't talked to Dincer much lately, but I just realized I've been hosting his stuff for six years now!  
(FYI, all costs for the Moon Sims server are donated by CyberTeams; no charge to fans or webmasters.  Sites hosted there are allowed to do begging if they want to; I'm a zero-hassle web host as long as the webmasters don't put adult or political material on their sites.  Donations to Dincer support his son's college fund; Dincer himself never even sees the money.)

http://moonsims.asi.org/dh-sims-site/
Oo I have been to this site! I love their work. I have several of their objects in my game. Love that dragon statue in the Chinese Outdoors set. I think I have just about all of this set Gustavian. I have several things from the Victorian, and Romantic sets. Several of the Egyptian pieces and more. Come to think of it I think I've downloaded quite a bit from there. lol But, they really do nice work. I should donate, I wish they had a regular donation button besides paying for a donation item. Not that I wouldn't like some of their donation items, I'd love to have them because I know their work and I know it's great quality. But, I won't donate for anything pay anymore. All my donations are going to free sites to help them stay active, making a circle of all the sites I have downloaded from. I haven't been there in awhile...But there right now so I can see if there are any updates. Thank you very much for the link. :)

Oh PS Raon's stuff is good quality but it would cost you a fortune to donate for all her donation items and she doesn't offer any discounts if you buy more than one. It's 6 dollars a piece. Which is why I only donated for 2 and no more when I was buying things from paysites.

Raonsims charges about 6 bucks for one month so you can get all of her donation items in the month you have the subscription. Are we talking about the same Raonsims? Because I just donated to her site this month and made it a point to get the donation items first so that I don't have to renew my subscription. I asked her if I could donate again so that I can give one of her bedroom sets to someone and she said no, she won't help! I was kind of disgusted because I could have just sent the stuff anyway because it was for my sister in NC. But as for TheSimsResource, I think SimAddict99 is a good artist, however she STILL hasn't responded to my request to use some of her items so... well I don't like TSR anymore. I now stick with 4ESF, ATS2, INSIM of course, and MTS2. Occasionally I will wander off to some other site... I will show more support to Rose though since she's such a nice person.:)

Oh, also 4ESF is expensive but they don't have too many donation items anyway. I almost have all of their stuff:D

You should not tell me that, she made me pay 12 dollars for two donation items and that is all I got! That will make me really mad. lol I even wrote to her and asked if she offered discounts if you want more than one donation item! grrrr I must have the word sucker tatoo'd across my forehead and it's true, cause if that's the case just call me queen sucker! lol

PS and Kathy, Nouk, Petra, Nymphy, Dew...none of my fellow Animal Army members, you are not allowed to comment on that comment...I mean it now, really and truly! lol

Stood looking around to see if anyone is watching, very tempting to make funny comment before anyone sees but decides  to behave  and offer  cookies and milk instead.    :toothy10::laughing: :toothy7:

Ive been trying to get into the *ahem*booty*cough* but I keep getting "this page cannot be displayed".
Is anyone else having trouble there?

How else was I supposed to get my shameless, self-serving plug in there, silly man?

I never realized it was so easy to find all I typed in google was booty sims 2 and it's the first link. Jeez I was thinking I'd at least have to search for it a little. I can never remember the link to it and I know I have it saved in my favs along with a million other Sims 2 websites, which is why I can't find anything. I want some paysite owner to really irk me off so I can really go in there and raid that link and not feel guilty about doing it. That's what I get for being Catholic everything that's fun is bad. lol

Anyway I clicked on the link and went straight in.

Oh and PS it has NOTHING to do with weather I think a paysite is wrong or right. I personally believe they are wrong. Theives stealing from young children since the majority of players are teenagers, and EA. That karma will come back around to them. It's about respect to me which no one seems to understand. Respect of another human being. Two wrongs have never made a right to me.  If it is about paying for a website, there are always alternatives. If it's about getting you something "YOU" want or supporting your family, get a job. How is it they can photoskin a designers clothing totally disrespecting their trademarks/copyrights, yet expect others to respect theirs? Steal things from these free Poser sites that share freely with the community and then sell their things, steal from these cad places that offer object files for free to the community. Use tools developed and shared freely in the community. How many of them have offered a dime to help support SimPe? Oh but they'll sit like vultures at the website waiting for the updates. Then sit and pound their chest about their rights. Blah, blah, blah and on and on.

To PegasusDiana, you make a very good point, but like you said, the tools are out there and they're free so if people want to use them they can but they choose not to. I'm not going to say that meshing and recoloring is easy because it's not. I just tried it and I found it very difficult. I thought it would be easy because like you said, most people just take pictures of clothes and paste them on there. I had no idea until I read this tutorial on here. I thought it was all hand made... (with the mouse that is). The outfit that I did is "handmade" but that's because of the point you bring up that all these people are doing is stealing from designers and whatnot. I think people should be paid for their work because after trying it myself... I didn't even start with meshing yet... it was kind of difficult... I think time consuming would be a better word. I think if these people take the time to do the work then maybe they should get paid for it. I do however disagree with some of the policies but that's another story.

I would love to give TSR a HUGE piece of my mind!!! Someone else said it, that if people are going to charge for their creations then they should be as close to perfect as humanly possible.

But most of what you said is VERY TRUE!! I have to agree but disagree at the same time. You put your statement so well! I would have never thought about them stealing from designers if I hadn't read that tutorial on photoskinning. By the way, that was a great tutorial:)

Again people who are against paysites are not against donating to sites that offer good CC.  As said before it would be great if you could "try before you buy".  You can't do that with a paysite (unless you get content from lots, sims, peer to peer, pmdb).

Basically the ideal utopia would be freesites that get the proper donations and support to keep going.  Where if you want a few items you don't have to run off to paypal first to try them out.  Where freesites can receive funds if fans want to donate them.

SGF it seems you seem ok with paysites, taking and giving money to creators basically.  That is your choice but its rather silly when there's so much great free content available. We all know its time consuming, we all know there are bandwidth costs, but does that justify it especially if lots of people say its wrong (EA Games, MTS2, PMBD) and the quality can often be poor?  I'd rather that great sites be freesites and that people donate to them accordingly.

I'd urge paysites and freesites to start taking advantage of free download hosting (sendspace, mediafire) and grouping their downloads.  Its a great way to allow free bandwidth and yet not pay for the costs.  Hundreds of music blogs use this method for hosting music files (50mb-100mb) and Sim sites doing this would be legal and likely last longer. Taking the bandwidth costs out of the equation would simplify the problem. Then it simply becomes should a creator accept payment for time spent.  I'd say definitely not but if they want to accept donations then other who say they do can repay them if they CHOOSE.

Wrong answer.  Ain't no free hosting worth having that will let you have zip files as downloads or are horribly limited on disk space or bandwidth or plaster your site with ads or popups or have so many other rules that you can't untangle them enough to figure out what you can have.  I've looked.  Face it, "free hosting" is intended for people who need to put up 20 pictures of Grandma's birthday party, not people who are going to have 100s of files downloaded 1000s of times per day!

I suspect the loophole that's allowing music file downloads from free hosting will be closed soon, since hosting music files for which you don't own the copyright is illegal by any measurement.

Also, stop implying that having a paysite is obviously wrong.  Ain't nothing obviously wrong in the whole situation.  

EA, the only one on your list with legal standing -- they can get cease-and-desist order if they really want no paysites.  Until then, no matter what gets published with whatever attribution... it's hearsay at best and forgery at worst.  Show me a legal document signed by a judge and published on the Maxis site, that's the only way you're ever gonna convince me that EA thinks it's wrong.  Until then, it's de facto agreement that paysites are fine, since there's a whole list of them on the site, complete with the words Pay Site.

PMBD -- well, I've been to the MATY boards to get hack updates enough to know that some of those people are pitiful excuses for human beings.  

MTS2 -- have you read their new policy?  No reposting paysite content!

BTW, you never answered my previous questions:

I usually get my stuff for free! I discovered all of the paysites from MTS2. I'm just saying that if that's what they want to do then why shouldn't they be able to do it? If people want to pay for the stuff then that's on the person who's paying. I'm sure people who download CC know that there are many great free sites to download from but people CHOOSE to donate or just give their money to sites they feel deserving. How is that harming anyone? I don't see the hurt to EA or anyone else. I do however agree with PegasusDiana somewhat about the stealing portion however, people can get the tutorials anywhere and they choose not to waste their time. It's unfortunate that some of the people who charge are offering Shitty content but that's life. When you pay for anything online you can't be sure what you're going to get and that's the risk people take when they do it. When I pay, it's usually because I can see that something is worth it (IMO) and I've seen content that I didn't think was worth paying for but that's just me. People shouldn't complain about donating to paysites. We do have choices and if people are getting ripped off then that's tough for them and even me. What's done is done!

I also think that maybe the people who charge for CC are profiting on someone else's hardwork which should never happen, but that's human nature. People are going to take any opportunity they can get and run with it! I hate to be so cynical but that's life so I think we should just all deal with it! If you don't want to pay then don't and if you do then that's on you (me). I think that should be the end of that.

Athena

What I think of paysite owners is that they are people lazy enough to not get a job... paysites were originally created due to bandwith problems...
But now, its just ridiculous to make people pay them considering you can buy terrabytes for a couple of bucks... (Ive checked!) And if you are crazy enough to make a paysite, your stuff will get stolen by pirates!
I love PSMD's booty area...

Well your implying that the entire music blog industry is incorrect on how to share files. Being able to download miusic files from these sites is widespread and works amazingly well. I'd say music blogging is the new p2p. So I completely refute your arguments. I think today's kids could weave around the spam on them much better than "granny" could to get her pictures.  

As for if doing music downloads this way is illegal or not is kind of the same thing as saying whether paying for sims downloads should be illegal or not.  I'd say yes, you obviously say no.  I know where you stand and yes I think you are in the wrong if you support paysites. It's ridiculous to claim that copyrighted music sharing is illegal (you are right) and say that sim paysites selling CC is not (they don't a copyright on the items they sell and you can't sell Sims CC. Read the EULA).  



I've seen EA's staements, they are clear as day. You say they have to actually sue someone before you take them seriously. People against paysites are getting involved so it dosen't need to be escalated to that level yet.



Well they've done more for hacks then any paysite i know (even simslice).  Not surprised to see a value judgement on their whole community from you.  



You didn't read it well enough, its no paysite material period. You can't post "get Peggy's hair for this sim here" anymore and advertise for a paysite mesh or item.  That includes TSR.  If its got any paysite content in or part of the upload its banned. No paysite material allowed. Its going to go 100% freesite and I applaud them for it.



I, like the freesites, choose to use my freetime as i see fit.  If that's arguing against paysites (or making my own CC) then that's how I choose to use my time.  I'm not getting payed to do it, and I don't think creators need to get paid for their freetime as well. If you love the Sims to it for the game, not the money.

I feel paysites harm the community as they put the Sims in a position where many creator sites are feeding off the community.  You just won't see other game communities doing paid CC and the same dishonorable activities.  I think its's wrong and EA should have acted sooner but it did not.

You can use free-website hosting to show your designs and I've already illustrated how you can host your files and pay for bandwidth by off-site file hosting.  That makes a freesite able to pull off.  I've run plenty of free blogs and websites in the last 10 years to know that its completely possible.  If you choose to ignore what I've recommended that's fine.  I wouldn't expect you to see the light.

I don't think you read the rules carefully djslippyman... "Items that are always free for download on a site that also contains donation or pay items are ok."

That's directly from the site... just a copy and paste! I don't see why you have to be so demanding about your choice. You can't say that someone isn't "seeing the light" because they don't do things your way... it's just not right but it's a part of human nature so I won't fault you for it;)

Also, why shouldn't people get paid for doing something they love? I love fashion but I'll be damned if I'm not going to get paid to do it. If I ever learned how to make cc then I wouldn't charge only because of personal choice. I think if you've already bought the game then that should be enough. I don't care if I had the best CC to offer, I would not charge for it because playing the Sims2 is a hobby (IMO).

You have your opinion so let everyone else have theirs... there's no need for calling people's ideas silly and whatever else you can think of.

Athena

I think this says it all - written by Steve Bonham of TSR:

"On Friday 20th July 2007, I was once again invited back to Electronic Arts ..."

That was well after everyone started writing to them insisting they shut down paysites.  If EA don't want to do it, is it our place to do their legal work for them?

My gesture towards free content is to make and share as much of it as I can.  Why don't we concentrate on helping each other do that, and hope some of the recent ugliness is soon left behind?

Thank god my voice of reason. I'll even grope your boobs rofl.
 
This is preciously my point boys and girls, if EA themselves doesn't give two shits about it and have been clearly blowing smoke up peoples arses, this is rather obvious by Steve's being invited back, why does everyone care so much to bitch about the legality when it is rather clear that EA themselves do NOT care. We can bitch and moan all we want how it isn't fair and how everything in life should be free but this is the real world and sadly this isn't the case.
 
If they ever come out and say anything it is going to be for paysites, not against them. They are linked to in the fansite listings, they are linked to all over the BBS, the linked to TSR's birthday for christ sakes. You have to be nuts to honestly believe that they had no clue.

Thank you, SolidGoldFunk.  This gentleman, and I use the term loosely, has his opinion and is not about to change it.  Since his posts are basically demands that I change my stance, which will happen when EA gets a cease and desist order, he's on my ignore list.  

Also cross reference my first two posts in this thread where I mentioned the futility of teaching pigs to sing and refered to to him as unteachable.

BTW, I just did a search on the Patent Office site... Neither EA nor Maxis has ever been awarded a patent on the DBPF format.  Guess what?  They don't "own" the package format!  Without a patent, they cannot control who can or can't write programs to create and modify package files or what any programs do to those files.


Will you be selling videos of that occasion as part of the fund raiser?

I am not sure what is going on behind the scenes with the Paysite issue, but i ahve noticed a lot of them now seem to have the same things...the exact same things with meshes made by someone claiming to be the original creator, and this creator is not the same one all the time...so yes the question might not be what the money from these things is supporting, more the question might be who is taking the meshes as their own.
Pirating movies and music seemed to be a big major thing not to long ago..i wold think this might become a major issue also. These creators work very hard to make things for those of us who are addicted to this game and the enhancements we get from downloading things for it, so I think it shouldnt matter what supports what..but who is stealing from it.
True I have a job and well we all know no job pays us what we really need to get by on what with rent and bills so it is a given that people might feel their things should be paid for, though thats not my opinion on my things, I have a hard enough time finding the time to actually play here lately.
Anyway, thats all I have to say, and thank you for letting me say it

anne

My memory is a bit vague on this, but I seem to remember a maxoid mentioning once right near the beginning of Sims 2 that something like it was unusual for a commercial game to send out so much of the software in an open format and benefit the custom creators in such a way.  And I felt at the time there was this sort of veiled warning that it could change in the future.

I am very concerned that we shouldn't get in their hair so much they close things up for Sims 3.  It's so much fun being able to poke around in the files so freely.  I know they might make tools themselves but looking at bodyshop and homecrafter they are not likely to be as flexible as something like SimPE.

A little off of the current subject, but I just couldn't help thinking this now:  "Ah... the evil that money will bring."

Just look at how dysfunctional the community is over this whole issue of pay vs. free.  All of the debates/arguments/etc. on who's right and who's wrong, who should be doing what, etc.  just because of who's making content for the sake of money or not.  I tell you, the green will bring out the worst in people sometimes... :?

This is why I'm happy with being broke and hating money.  :angel:

(ETA:  Man you people post fast!  I had something else to say, but I'll wait a while.  :lol:)

I suspect they already have made that decision.  So we'll all just keep playing Sims 2 until our CDs are too scratched to spin up in our drives.

Name one thing that comes out of BodyShop or HomeCrafter that's not improved by a quick trip through SimPE.  Clothes have to be age adjusted or unisexed.  Hair has to be binned.  HomeCrafter doesn't allow multiple line descriptions (IIRC).

No now were still going to have Spore which is going to come with custom content creators because Maxis still holds rights over it. I think once it comes out I'll have to continue this fight over on their forums. lol I've been waiting forever for it to come out.  In fact the only reason I purchased the Sims 2 which I swore I wasn't going too after Sims 1 was the release date on it was 2 years away. But I think your correct about Sims 3, I think EA is closing up shop as far as CC creation. I just read an article about how much money they've been loosing and that they are going to be downgrading. I knew that was coming when they brought back the former CEO. I think I said it in an earlier post he's the clean up guy.

I create free Sims2 content, but I am against the whole anti-paysite thing, so I wanted to answer this too.

As for the EULA and legal agruments, Kathy has already answered that much better than I could.

Anyway, I do NOT support paysites simply because I am not in favor of the anti-paysite stance.  I personally don't look at them as anything more than simply a Sims2 site.

What I do support is respect for the content creators, no matter what site they create for, and no matter if I approve of how they choose to distribute their items.  To me, the only right thing to do is to respect their wishes - if they say "do not put this on the Exchange", I won't.  Likewise if they say "do not redistribute at all", "do not recolor", or even "you must subscribe to get this item", I will respect that as well.

The second thing I strongly support is the right of people to choose - I personally choose not to subscribe to Sims2 sites, nor pay a donation fee to get a donation item from a free site.  But neither I, nor anybody else, has a right to make that descision for other people.

I can't honestly support these two principles, and also be anti-paysite.

You bring up a wonderful point and I wish to make my post as clear as possible to help prevent any misquoting that is bound to come from it. While there is a lot of sharing of pay content going on they, the pirates, don't share free content as it is redundant if it is free elsewheres. Pescado and 98% of the others have stood by this since day one. However there are some, who have taken it to the next level and has the attitude screw it all I will do whatever I want with your work regardless of what your terms are, free or pay. One site owner in particular has been caught doing this time after time and, from my understanding (and yes I verified by checking) is doing it yet again with content from this site.
 
Sakrayami, to answer your question, that is one of the primary reasons why you see any free content creator defending paysites. Because it isn't stopping with just paysites, it is leaking in to the free content arena. Some people simply choose to disreguard anyones wishes and then has the audacity to ban them when they attempt to get their content removed from the site in question. Others simply don't see the point in continuing the fight as it has accomplished nothing thus far.

I completely agree that we should have respect for the CC makers! I love to draw and I know I would be sick if I found my work posted some place else with someone else's name on it. Although, I WISH some sites weren't so strict with their rules, I do my best to follow them. I recently posted a couple of houses with content that wasn't supposed to be redistributed even though it was free... I misread the policy:smt120  I removed one of the homes for download and the other I fixed. I always go back to recheck policies to make sure that I'm not doing what the creators don't want me to do... if that makes sense.

Another thing I agree with is that it doesn't make sense for us to complain about it or try to get people to change their stance on it. Let EA do what they have to do to stop what they don't like about pay or free sites.

Look I know Miros1 and I are very much at odds in our opinions on this issue.  While we're bound to both think the other is the ignorant party it does come to very much an opinion and the fact that we both think we are right.  I've backed up my opinions with what i see are "facts" or "proof".  Whether someone reads the same thing or even think they are valid is up to the reader.

I'm well aware that EA is the deciding factor and that they've been inactive on enforcing the issue.  Then again I've got heard people say over and over  "don't get EA involved! bad things will happen".  I think the biggest reason for EA not to get involved is that lawayers cost money and they likely won't recoup much if they go after a site (in comparison to what they would be spending).  Again, the argument is still rather moot if EA just sits still but I'm going by what they have actually written in print in the meantime.  

That said I'm sticking to my guns and my beliefs and I don't see them changing anytime soon.  As for MTS decision I still think its a win for pirates (see http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=240944 for responses to see) but its all up to eye of the beholder. Some see it as a win for paysite meshes being banned from uploads and I can see that point of view as well. either way its a fair decision.

I still think the argument that smaller sites can't pay for costs with free hosting and free file hosting has been dismissed.  It all goes to whether its ok to charge for content or not; some are fine with it, I'm not.  I'm not spitting on CC creators even if they are paysites (except maybe the ones with terrible content) , I'm just saying I don't like their actions and attitudes on how they run their business  and I hope people continue to circumvent them and just get their material on PMBD. :punch:

Diana think about it doll... you'll know who I'm referring to.

1) If their software wasn't so buggy, they wouldn't be losing so much money, would they?
2) If their "stuff packs" weren't also buggy and ugly to boot, well, ditto.

lmao Agreed. In reality, possibly with the exception of Seasons, the last couple EP's have left much to be desired and added very little to the game play that I found appealing. Pets for example, we all know what a craptastic mess that was. Yes it introduced Pets for people but it is far too limiting as far as custom content and the ability to mold and shape these pets into something worthwild. Instead of only adding pets to the mix they should have added more for the family as well such as new interactions for children and teens. More content and less bugs. The same can be said for OFB and University as well. Nightlife's only redeeming quality was the car aspect and now that has been opened to the general public via the Ford Mustant and Ford Focus so I feel rather robbed there as well. Let's hope Bon Voyage isn't yet another disappointment.

Valve (Half-Life) has made a business out of open formats and modding. Heck, they give away a huge chunk of the game and game engine source code right on the game CD (installation optional). They just never had as good a game idea as Will Wright did.

<* Wes *>

The only reason I did get all EP's is because I was expecting something MUCH better! The PETS EP really was a disappointment. I don't like how you can't make certain animals more realistic! I mean, the Great Dane for example, Great Danes are HUGE! There is no way that a doberman and a Great Dane are close in size. I wanted to make my dogs and even the color pattern options were limited. I will get Bon Voyage but I hope it's worthwhile! I like the idea just like I did with the other EP's but we all know how that goes!

:laugh:

No fair!  I can't slip in a shameless self-serving plug for my simmish pursuits because everything I've done lately is on the grup site.

^Richard, perhaps you didn't read Numenor's thread about Pandora on S2C?

http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=23345 (http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=23345)

At any rate, I'm thankful I never subscribed to Pandora. I downloaded some of Pandora's stuff from the Booty, and wasn't overly thrilled with it, so I decided to remove it from my DL folder. Stealing work from free creators and passing it off as your own, as everybody knows, is wrong regardless of whether you are putting a price tag on it or not.

I have a question/comment for those of you that feel that EA is the legal owner of any content packaged in their file format.

EA has taken a position against sites seeking pay for works distributed in their copyrighted file format.  What would your position be if EA took a stance against free sites distributing "adult" content in their copyrighted file format?

What if the question was no longer about others making money off of the format, but EA perceiving that their games image was being damaged by content they don't approve off, hypothetically?  Would you still say that EA has the right to make that call?

I think if EA took that stance then the people who feel that way would have no choice but to abide by it. Just as they are abiding by the rule or law that money is not to be made off of their work (I'm assuming you're talking about insimadult). Although, I don't see how EA would think that since most of the adult content is for adults only.

Also, how would people making adult content ruin the reputation of EA? EA has games where adult content is included. Def Jam Icon is one that comes to mind off the top of my head since that's what my husband plays. They have games with violence and they give it a rating for a reason. So that the content doesn't get into the wrong hands, but it still does and I'm sure they know it. I don't think that that's a reasonable hypothetical question in the first place.

No matter what their stance is, even if they should decide to make it clear they do support paysites. I think we all should abide by their rules. We never wrote the game/we never marketed it. No one could be making a penny or any CC without it. We should not try to piggyback in on it for our own personal gain. If we want others to respect us, then we too must respect others. If EA had said we are going to give licensing agreements to those that wish to sell CC for our game. I would have said ok. But they did not. If designers had said it's ok to use our clothing designs to make money off of. I would have said ok, but they have not. If these websites that share their CAD objects for free with the whole community and do not make a dime said it's ok if we give them to you for free and you sell them. I would have said ok, but they did not. If these Poser artist that distribute their content for free so everyone can enjoy it had said you may sell it, I would have said ok, but once again they did not. Over and over on Renderosity and Daz they talk about not reselling their products, but are they being respected? No they are not. Linda/Enayla said post my skins on your models you may even use them and my eyes on paysites just please do not sell them. Was she respected? No she was not and now she is gone. She could have asked for donations and probably would have made a mint, I would have donated for anything she made. She is professional artist both offline as well as online and shared her things for free. She followed the rules of the EA contract, a legal contract she agreed too and had no problems in doing so. Eric, and the selling of Insim. Numenor, Helaene, etc...etc.

A few months ago Eric caught someone selling the InSIM for $2.00. Pissed me off, it is worth more than that.

Sorry, charliex!  File formats are patented, not copyrighted, and according to USPTO.org neither Maxis nor EA owns a patent to the DBPF format.  

Even owning a patent doesn't give you the "right" to control what gets put in your files.  All it does is allow you to control who can or can't write computer software to read and write files in "your" format, and charge a fee for the priviledge of writing that software if you desire.  

Example: The licensing fees from the GIF "writer" patents kept Unisys going for quite some time.  They chose not to issue licenses for "reader" programs to ensure the popularity of the format and keep the money from the licensed portion coming in.

Lol!!!   Yeah, while at some level it might be flattering that someone chooses to rip off your work, the least they could do is accord it its proper value :D

What site was that? :lol: I think it more like $10.00 if you ask me...

Nope, it's worth the unconditional love of simmers everywhere.:-P

I agree Cynara, also if I may add, the hard work that Eric, Kathy, Squinge, Numenor, and others in the community to make our gameplay smooth and fun, is priceless!!  My meaning, we can never afford it!  What I find by paysite owners, quite a bit are not as creative or imaginative as those who provide the content for free. Don't get me wrong, I visit paysites, and buy because the content is absolutely fabulous, like Raonsims, and reflexsims, but I will give a whole lot more in the form of donations if their sites were free, because I want to see it up and running.  That is why I give like crazy here and at other freesites, because I want them to stick around for a loooong time, LOL.  I love INSIM, because I can rattle on, too! Haha!:-P

Well. all i can say is thank to dr.pixel and kathy for answering. I don't like to write too much english since it's not my motherlanguage. But i understand it very well. I am not involved with pirates, i have a very busy life. on the other hand i can understand them in many ways, but i do not want to debate this here. I have recently seen a lot of the pirates in different forums, and i think their arguments are quite ok.

I've been thinking of the legality of reverse engineering as well, and that's not legal, i do not need more than common sense to understand that.  To change codes for a game, and then sell it without approval from the original company, it wouldn't be legal where i live. I know that for sure. There are people all over the world playing this game, and i can't recall it has been similar discussions around paysites/not paysites with other games.

I have nothing against donating to S2C, MTS2 or this site now and then,
but i will never spend a penny to support paysites.

I'm sure many have heard about the recent changes to the EULA by now but...

http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=982200&postcount=113

Maybe a little too sure?  :roll:  Yeah, I did check the actual site, but I'm not buying anything from this until I hear an official front page statement from EA themselves.  A few wording changes that go unnoticed (on the Fansite kit page BTW) by many is not official enough, IMHO.  Besides, as long as they still condone file sharing, it doesn't mean as much as people are starting to take it.

However, if this is the real deal, and they really are going to change this (http://legal.ea.com/legal/legal.jsp?language=en) version of it, I hope EA plans on selling licenses for those who insist on staying purely pay/donation.  That, and they'd better at least give them some strict standards to follow in the license agreement...

Either way, I'm not wasting any more money than I want to when it comes to a game like The Sims (meaning purchasing just the games, and nothing else).    Personally, I just don't see the logic of having to buy the extra pixels and sprites from a non-official site that'll probably end up in my Recycle Bin someday.  I pay enough for the game and EPs, just for the sake of entertainment.  Think of all that money I'll save for gas, bills, and food!  :tongue3:

So... any more opinions on this?  I'm curious to know more about these developments.  :angel:

Well I knew this was going to happen.

Man, that's crazy! I just hope this doesn't mean the end of great free sites. :(

They technically haven't added any restrictions to bodyshop or homecrafter yet from what I have read but most likely will with the release of Bon Voyage. Honestly I don't think any free sites are in danger of becoming paysites even if they do say We support Paysites.

Yeah, I think they will add restrictions too. We'll see though. But Kathy, you may be right about free sites not being in danger, because there seems to be a great deal of people against paysites and I don't think it's only because of the EULA.

I read this, it's just posted for the Content Manager. This is the same thing I read when I downloaded the Content Manager when I first got the Sims 2. It's just been updated, but it's the same as before. It was always different than the EULA for the content manager. In fact if they keep posts that old you could probably find a post from me where I asked why the rules are so different on the Content Manager than they are on Body Shop and Home Crafter? They seemed really laxed on the content manager. But someone else posted in that thread it's because you can't create anything with the Content Manager. Which by the way no one else ever answered. As far as a Maxoid, I mean. Yes I am one of those weirdo's that read everything. lol I also save everything, so I'll look for the TOS from when I got it, but it looks identical to what I read back then.

Oh okay Diana. I think it's on the website. I just downloaded content manager this morning but of course I didn't read it... lol.

I downloaded it, but I think even my computer rejects the idea of change... it keeps giving me an error when I try to run it.  :lol:

The fact that sites like TSR are now looking forward to the 'new' changes to the EULA just doesn't make any sense.  Sure, it may had been the number one dispute at the beginning, but like many have said before, it's still 'a weak argument.'  I've even looked back at my thoughts on it over time, and the more I learned about the 'legal stuff', the less I believed that EA was going to do something about it and follow their own words. Why try to follow it now?  We've all seen by now that EA doesn't care as much what we do, so long as no one is dishing out warez of their products... :tongue:

Personally, nothing changes for me.  I'm still going to keep on doing as I always have, even if EA is all for them.  Support and download from my favorite sites, have fun with my game, create some random CC every now and again, and other things.  Yes, that even includes raiding the booty when I feel like it.   Like I keep saying (...broken record syndrome...):  it's just a game...  a game that's loved dearly and taken way too seriously at times.  I just don't see why certain people feel the need to take advantage of the situation and make money off of it... I've never really liked the "piggyback" ideals some people tend to have.

Ironically enough the same people who stood around stating that the EULA claims selling content are the same ones backpeddling and are now saying the EULA doesn't matter. Bottom line people are going to do what they want with zero regard for anyone other than themselves. They don't want to pay for content so by god they will find a new excuse not to and on the same token well since it's legal lets milk this cow for all it's worth.
 
Any chance of the community spirit, if there ever was any, being repaired is long gone. All we are left with is even more bickering. If you don't like paysites fine noone is forcing you to support them, if you like them whatever it's your money.

Really, really astonishing, how far a "more important than anything else, read carefully and see, that we are right" EULA can turn into a peace of paper without any right to exist or to respect.

:lol:  Really sounds that way, doesn't it?  Especially from the way I said my piece above...


And I couldn't agree more with that part.  It's always going to be that way with anything people do.

Not surprisingly, Maxis/EA is saying "We don't have a problem with paysites, stop bothering us about it."

What this does is put to rest any arguments that paysites are somehow illegal.

Will it stop the pirates?  Certainly not, but I must admit I find it funny to see everyone who used to treat the EULA as if it was the Holy Grail suddenly doing a complete 180...

Yes, it's interesting.

You know, I couldn't agree more with you guys. I asked a question on The Simsfilevault, why is it okay to respect the wishes of free creators and not pay creators? I had a couple of great responses, such as want to respect the free creators because maybe they will keep their content free. True enough for me, BUT, if the EULA is changing then the people there will be guilty of the same thing they accused paysites of doing, stealing. I was actually convinced because I actually read the first EULA myself so that was my proof but now that EA is saying it's okay then that gives me nor anyone else the right to fight so hard against paysites and bring the legal mumbo jumbo in the argument and then when the other side wins it's like well I won't accept my loss. I will do what I want because this is supposed to be a "friendly" community. Well, if these people thought that way then why not respect all creators? Paying for stuff isn't undermining fun in the sims community. If you want to pay then pay, if not you should obtain your cc legally since that was the whole argument anyway right?

Judging from the responses I have seen on the threads on S2C, for many anti-paysite people it was obviously not really the argument, nor anything they really cared about anyway.  It was just a convienient way to make themselves look legitimate, as if they were upholding the law, and protecting the "community".  The truth is coming out now.

(I know, I'm really, really random with posting in this topic sometimes, but I just had to get this 'little' tidbit on how the outside world sees us simmers and the issue of pay vs. free content.)

I decided to get an opinion from a few "non-biased" sources today... or just three people who don't know about the online Sims community, just to be fair.

I just had an interesting conversation with my older brother on this subject a few hours ago.  (a heavy gamer)  He's played The Sims before, but hasn't touched a Sims game since the original came out... and even then he didn't play it that much, nor did he know about custom content and paysites.  As soon as I brought up the subject about the paysite debate on the web, of course he did a double take.  His reaction was just about the same as mine when I first found out about them...

"People actually pay for that stuff?  Pssh.  Goes to show how far people will go just to put money in their pockets..."  

He also said that any game company that doesn't give a care about who's selling what parts of their game code is "just plain stupid."  (:dontknow: This is actually a debatable statement.  I think it was a genius move, because if they didn't have a tight reign on their DBPF ".package" file format coding, there wouldn't be all the decent game fixes, cool mods, and helpful development tools made by the community.  Personally, I think if they just come out with a more noticeable official statement, then some people won't have to question their business sense like he did.)

Then I asked a friend of mine from school earlier today.  Unlike my brother, he plays sims, but he doesn't know anything outside of the official site, or too much on custom content at that.  When he asked me about all of the different clothes, objects, etc. I had in my game, I gave props to here, MTS2, and other free sites.  Then I asked him how would he feel if he found out he had to pay for some of the stuff he was pining for from my game.  He looked at me, laughed, and said, "You're kidding me, right?  I don't need all that stuff that badly."  Of course, I took the time to tell him that people actually did that, and needless to say, he was just as surprised as my brother.  (Especially after he checked out PeggySims2 for the first time.  I think he almost had heart palpitations when he saw the subscription prices.  :lol: )

Lastly, I asked the person who knows the least about games:  my mom.  :smile bi:  Simply put:  she thinks we're all a bunch of nuts and fanatics... and that we should be doing something more productive in life other than sitting at the computer and "screamin' back 'n forth" about what's supposed to be done with a game.    And that's the nicer version of it... :roll:

These people think we're Class A weird.  :eh:  Oh well...


Now, getting back to the original topic:

I can't really speak for everyone, but I think the "protecting the community" claim is still legit enough for me.  Well... not so much as protecting, but "shedding light on the shadowy spots" would probably be more like it.  I actually have to thank the ones who started the in-your-face approach.  I would've never known all of the good and bad points of what's happening in the community if it wasn't for them.  With more and more people learning about both sides of the issue every day, I think that should still count for anti-paysite believers speaking out more openly, and sites like InSim, MTS2, and PMBD allowing it.  

And in a small defense:  some people still do care about the overall Sims community.  Not everyone should be categorized as self-righteous  just because they change their opinion on the EULA and legal rights, but not on file sharing.  No accusations here... just needed to get that off my chest.  I know someone out there reading this and the other threads had to be thinking that.   ;)

Yeah, I have to admit that I thought you guys were being self-righteous. It just doesn't seem fair to bring EA into this and then when they do something about it, criticize them for it. All is supposed to be friendly here right? So why not make the change now and stop arguing about who's right and who's wrong. Let's just respect everyone whether you like them or not. This should not turn into anything more than it has to. If PMBD wants to stay up and you want to raid it then by all means but wouldn't that be hypocritical to do? I don't think that protecting the community is a valid point. If you want stuff that bad then you're gonna pay for it. Obviously not too many people had or has a problem with paysites since people were buying from places like Peggysims2. So let people do their own thing and enjoy the freakin' game! That will "protect" the community in the long run, IMHO. So let's all hug now:group hu:

Ok like an idiot I downloaded home crafter plus just to see what the thingy says and here is how it reads, I had to delete the old one first to get the new one to install: I have a serious question at the end of this for any paysite owner or those cheering saying EA is going to support paysites to please give me an honest answer.

It's a lot different then the content manager one. Your all welcome to go and download it, it can be found on the website. I think it's like the other guy told me it's because you can't create CC with the Content Manager. But this is neither here nor there. EA is allowing discussions on paysites to be allowed on the BBS now. They know there are paysites, they know about the Pirate site. They know people are uploading paid content to the BBS. They haven't done a thing for either side. So both sides of the coin are just batting in the wind. EA doesn't want to dirty their hands and alienate either side to loose fans. We can argue day and night but it isn't going to solve this issue. Spore won't come with anyway to sell CC and neither will Sims 3 we already know this. Both programs are going to come with CC makers, but you won't be able to sell the CC. The difference? EA is going in from the beginning in both Spore and Sims 3. They came in on the tail end of Sims 2 and owning "all" rights. How long before it comes out?  Not long at all. :) Just go to a show and you'll see how CC will be handled for the games. Oh and when your there ask Will what he thinks about paysites, and how he's boosom buddies with any fansite owner that goes or is invited to the shows. That's all I'm going to say on this matter. I've called EA legal more than once, and now I've gone to a one night show that cost too much money just to be told the same thing I have been told all along. I'm done. People are going to twist the EULA to suit their needs on both sides. So there is no sense in arguing it anymore.

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Ok I have a serious question now and I would like for paysite owners or those cheering saying EA is going to support paysites to use a little common sense when answering this question.

Did Subway agree to the EULA? Did Disney? Did Gucci? Did McDonalds? Did Donna Race? Did Jessica Galbreth? Did Ruth Moorehead? Did A&F? Christian Dior? Marjolein Bastin? Ralph Lauren? Tommy Hilfiger? Anyone from a whole list of artist, designers, companies owning trademark/copyright? No they did not.

So why on God's green earth would EA open themselves up to lawsuits from any one of these people/companies for actively supporting paysites? If you own one of these companies are you going to sue some tiny website or are you going to go after the people with money? Your going to go after EA and if EA supports paysites, guess who they are going to go after? EA. Especially when they find out that EA is supporting the sale of their copyrighten/trademarked material. So I ask again why would EA support/endorse paysites? Do you seriously think/believe they are willing to jeopordize or take a chance on loosing millions if not billions as the lawsuits pile up to support a few fans? Oh wait you didn't agree to the EULA? Doh, EA may not have some of the brightest bulbs in the package, but no way will they set themselves up for something like that.

So can we just hug now?:D

Hey remember I'm with you! I'm one of those that has paid for CC and I don't download from the booty, but I sure love all those pirates and their give em hell attitudes. hehe

Ok HUGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

:group hu: All is good.  :smile bi:

BtW, I'm not an official pirate... I'm just a guest lurker.  I do support some of what they stand for, especially in telling it like it is, and the pulling together to support free sites.  I really don't care what people decide to do with their games in the long run... I just don't like to see other people get cut off or mistreated for having a reasonable opinion or critique on something.  (...sadly, this happens mostly on paysite forums...)

(Plus, all I care about is having fun with my game and the other simmers in the community.  And whatever I like, I'll put in my game, free or file-shared pay.  Guess I'm just another part time booty-holic now... wait.  That didn't come out right.  :doh:)

The terms of use of the EA site was revised on 6th August and now appears to lend more weight to the right of creators not to have their content uploaded to the exchange without permission.   It invites anyone who feels their intellectual property rights have been infringed to contact them and ask - presumably - for that content to be removed.

That sounds fair. I don't know why they didn't do that in the first place.

Sounds just about right...

For those who think the EULA change isn't "official", or only applies to the Content Manager, please see this:
http://bbs.thesims2.ea.com/community/bbs/messages.php?threadID=6134fe0a997bb1d12255fce7195a7cbd&directoryID=2&startRow=1&openItemID=item.2,item.61,item.104,item.41,item.127,item.23#6f4e9dbfcebd6df26b64b9a71d301072

Thank you.  That's much better and much more believable.  ;)

Wonder what EA plans on doing next.  I still say they if they're going to allow paysites to continue what they're doing, they should have a type of permit/license available for them to purchase and certain rules to follow.  Don't know exactly how it works, but it would make me feel more comfortable if they did something like that... (:roll: Laughable, yes.  What I just typed is extremely wishful thinking.  Especially with what the third paragraph in the EULA says.  :lol:)

Yes, EA is pretty much trying to keep themselves OUT of this, they certainly don't want to become responsible for paysites (or any Sims2 fansites for that matter)

Where has EA made paysites legal? If they do that, i can go to EA and complain about broken peggyhair, or be it other paysitestuff. If they make paysites legal, they also will have responsible for WHAT they are making legal.

It's not that difficult to create CC, i have done this myself for own use, but i can't see why i should claim money if i uploaded it? Because EA allows me to do that, is it what some of you are saying? And where has EA outlawed Filesharing?

Well, not saying that they have made paysites legal, but to me their inactivity and unwillingness to make a decision in the matter just speaks louder than anything else they've done, unfortunately.  (...of course, they also haven't said anything on filesharing custom content either, so it's still going to continue without a doubt.  :smile bi:)  I'm just saying if they do allow paysites to legally continue being the way they are, they might as well have more say about it.  It's their product, so they should at least be clearer on what's really legal and what's not, especially in the case of selling CC...

The changes to the EULA still don't give a clear stance on the paysite issue, IMHO.  Just because "non-commercial" was removed, we can't really know for sure what EA is planning on doing... :dontknow:

Yes i agree they could have been clearer.  But imo., the EULA i agreed when installing my latest EP is the valid one. Not a "new" statement who have taking away a paragrah of non-commercial use on a custom content browser (pardon my english). I haven't agreed on this socalled new EULa. Isn't this EULA for the software content manager? I understand that paysites, like TSR is making their own versions who fits them of course, it's money involved here, i can only speak for myself, i am not interested in this business,, money is not the problem, but it's a moral question.

Anyway, this will not change anything, paysites can't go out and tell people that they are legal, unless they have signed a contract with EA, and we all know that this is not true or possible, the EA would look stupid compared to other game-communities, i haven't seen this debate before in my entire life.

But if - i say IF EA should legalize paysites, i will uninstall my game and play other games, not from EA, Sims 2 is not my life, i have work and family, this is just a hobby for now.

I think thats becuase they have allready had legal problems with the sims 2, evil tyrant jack thompson allready attacked TS2 beacuase of adult custom content, now EA has to face almost a whole freaking community, compared to a weak lawyer. (he blames video games at any very imfamous event, like the virginia tech shooting) EA doesnt want to
deal with it...

Please look at the link I gave a few posts above - it is an announcement on the EA site that the EULA of the Content Manager is now the official EULA for the game itself and all expansions.

And it does, in fact, have all the "non commercial" references removed.
It also makes no reference to sharing files - but it didn't before, either.

Are paysites now legal?  That is misleading, since they never were illegal - a EULA is a two-party contract, not a law.  Before this, you could validly make the claim that paysites were in violation of the EULA, or guilty of Breach of Contract.  Now you can not.

Do you (I am using "you" in the collective sense) have to agree to the new EULA?  Not now, not until they actually put it into an expansion pack that you install - and they have said that it is too late to include this new EULA in the next expansion.

However, what you do in regards to the EULA has no bearing on what other people do - once again, a EULA is a two party contract, not a public law.  What I mean is that I am not bound in any way by a EULA that someone else accepts, only by a EULA that I accept myself.

The idea that Maxis/EA has any responsibility for user-made content is also false - they allow people to make and distribute it, but they clearly say that they do not endorse it, and you are supposed to include that statement on your website.

They even take it further, by putting up that warning notice when you start the game saying that the custom content you have installed could damage your game, and you must purposely click on the button to allow custom content to stay in your game at that point.  Basically this amounts to another contract, relieving them of any responsibility for custom content of any kind, pay or free.

And what benefit hassling EA to take responsibility for user-made content can bring I do not know.  If we succeeded in that, they'd simply ban user-made content!

Someone will now make the point that they would be silly to do that because the sales of the game will decrease.  Well we now know the sales would probably decrease by no more than 5% at the most, as EA have published some research showing that only 5% of their users ever download any of the patches.   They seem to think that this may mean only that many users actually use the internet to help them enjoy the game.  I think it may mean that too.

Actually that's a link to a post by Maxoid that is not part of the legal office of EA. Seems that the legal office of EA states that the Content Manager EULA sends you to the EULA you received with your game, the one with non-commercial references.  
That would make sense since we didn't accept any other agreement.

I would suggest to everybody really interested on this matter to call 650-628-1500 press 0 and ask to speak to the legal department.

That clears things up...

The argument about EULA is mind-boggling, to say the least. Maxis is trying, I think, to absent themselves from being responsible for any CC being installed, having players complain about it to them, and then not being responsible for the content of the paysites themselves.
Which makes sense-why should Maxis be compelled to take charge over hundreds of paysites which are the property of other people? that would be a headache and a half!
My personal complaint about paysites is their sheer ability to charge people to download things that may or may not work, and then claim they're doing it for little or no fees, to complain of poverty. I don't know what bandwidth costs now, (and never did, actually) but some of the claims saying that some paysites will go out of business if you don't donate yesterday to their cause is misleading. True, some do go out of business, but for the majority, if they do go down, it's only because of lack of interest on the part of the owner and the people who download from it. Lousy content will do a paysite in faster than no money.
I am tending to avoid paysites when they partition off their creations to select people who are willing to fork over whatever they have to to get something that is sometimes very mediocre, and then buy into other sites (usually also pay) supporting that same mediocre content-it's a very locked circle and it's not very user friendly for those of us who don't want to give out their money to everyone in the universe that is Sims 2.
I'm just not willing to send my hard-earned money out to support another person's hobby.

I fell into the trap of "paysites", big time. What a terrible mistake that was. After my downloads folder was just rudiculously large I began to purge it. And to my surprise, most of the things I purged were from pay-sites. I was furious at myself for the wasted money.
Seems to me the best route would be to upload your creations to a site like this one, donate on a regular basis, and you just aviod all the hassle. To pay a set price for something just doesn't sit well with me. Of course it is only my opinion that the prices are too high for the quality. I've seen many pay-sites vanish over the years, and I must say, I don't miss them.
I do however have no objection to having something extrordinarily well done being offered on a free site for pay, as an incentive to donate to help defray the costs of bandwidth on a site this size.
So many people come here, grab what they want and leave with nary a thought to the time the creator put into the item, or the time Kathy and Eric devote to this site.

I work for a big corporation and yes we've customer relation reps in the legal department. By the way I find interesting that in one year you found the time to post only twice: the post I just quoted plus another one pointing directly to a paysite. Makes me wonder... Plus... how come that people that can find money to give to paysites cannot support Insimenator?

This thread has now been inactive for a while, but I think this is the most suitable place for this..

A recent debate is going on at ReflexForum here  (http://www.reflexsimsforum.com/showthread.php?t=17792)that some of you may be very interested in. Its a debate about whether paysites should be able to share personal information to prevent file sharers or not.

The debate is happening after it was revealed (and is still being revealed (http://coconut-tsr.livejournal.com/)) that TSR site owner/admins are sharing paypal and personal information with their team - staff and FAs - in a very vindictive manner. This includes usernames, email address, and real names. If you follow links on the threads then you can see them for yourselves

Points of interest in this are that it is against Paypals agreement to do so, its against members trust to do so, and the manner of it being done is quite nasty. So, do you think they are right to do so? And furthermore, do they have the right?

Am posting this as I think this is important for members here at Insim, as they may be subscribers at TSR or just simply interested in it. So if mods wonder why I woke up an old thread with this, those are my reasons. Have linked to Reflex and Coconut's LJ instead of booty links..so I pesume that is ok. If not, then please let me know ^^

TSR have a statement up refuting that they use the information in this way.  Is there a way of proving it one way or the other?

Mm, how exactly do you mean Inge?

If you mean proving it through evidence, then there are screenshots of the actual thread here (http://coconut-tsr.livejournal.com/2008/10/06/), where you can see in the first couple of posts that information of users is being posted...and if you read through it, you can see the manner that they do so. Theres talk of glee at sharing information, using trackers in files, and talk of wanting to add worms and trojans to files to catch file sharers

So, like the Reflex thread, I was wondering what you guys here thought: should they or should they not take these measures? Do paysites have the right to?

Nymphy the thread at Reflex requires you to register to view it... I won't register so what is the gist of what they are saying? Also is Reflex the one that LyricLee has ran to?

Oh I forgot that Reflex needs you to register. Its an interesting read, the first post is as follows
 


(Have taken out the links to the threads mentioned as these are at pmbd, and I believe its not allowed to link to pmbd outside of the WCIF area)
 
Basically, the discussion there is split between people shocked and unsubscribing because of this, and others saying that paysites do have the right to - espically TSR as it is in the small print when you register. Its not so focused on the EULA or the fact that this is sims files, but more so focused on peoples privacy and what right a site has to share this information. There are some people in there who are worried about identity theft and etc, so many have been put off subscribing because of that.
 
And LyricLee is there yes.

I guess there is a line between "official policy" of a site and what a group of individual FAs get up to.  Though as a site admin I wouldn't pass on contact details of my registered users to any contributors on my site.  Registration details go no further than me (and fellow admins if I had any which I don't).  And I am sure Kathy and Eric don't hand over such details to Squinge, or Marvine etc.

So how did these FAs find out the stuff in order to share it in the first place?

ETA: OMG just read on further and yes it's the owner of TSR himself doing it.  So how does he manage to sit there typing up a blatant denial?  There are some very strange people about.

Sadly you both know this isn't the first time. There was a thread running on a certain freesite where "someone" got together with paysite owners and shared info as well. Once the person left that freesite and went to a certain paysite it was suspected that she moved her activities there and they were still sharing peoples info.
 
It isn't right, no doubt about it. There was more than just names being shared at one time but also addresses which certainly isn't safe but ya know since they were viewed as pirates and the mighty paysite owners said enough some people found it acceptable. Also, just to point out something I said a long time ago, when the whole fiasco originally happened and screen shots were posted of Rose (from RoseSims) was sharing peoples info on that freesite I, with the help of BlueSoup, figured out who to change the settings so people who are donating do NOT have to provide their information.

Indeed. Was about to answer you saying it was the site owner when you edited it in

As you can see from the screenshots, that thread has been going on since 2007 and is available for all staff and FAs to see - that is rather a large amount, as it includes FAs past and present.

Are people comfortable with that amount of people seeing their personal information? Do you think that creators on a site deserve to see information like mods and admins do? And what do people think about the fact that there are screenshots proving TSR have done this, and then they publically deny it?

Eta: I was typing when you posted. You are correct, I did know that this had gone on before..but knowing is one thing, seeing it is another. Am frankly shocked by the rudeness of it all, and as there is strong evidence this time (before there were only some screenshots, like the one of Rose you mentioned) it should be known to more people. Personal information is something that we all have, and privacy and trust are very important to members on a site.

Ok first off I think as a site owner there is certain information that you do not and should not share with other admins or moderators. Anyone with half a brain should know this.
 
Also file sharing is as harmful as a pedophile? Well that is news to me. That is the most ignorant and insulting thing I have heard in quite awhile. Since when did filesharing leave a child terrified and completely shattered because some sick son of a bitch felt he had a right to touch them?

As a moderator on a forum, the only information I have access to is usernames, email adresses and IP adresses..thats it. I have access to it, but do nothing with it outside of mod duties (eg, so IP tracking to catch multiple accounts is a mod duty). I can see it because I am a mod, so anything I do with it will be what a mod should do. The phrase 'know when to not cross the line' springs to mind here...

The whole concept of sharing personal information like that just befuddles me, but am curious if people think paysites should be able to do this.


Unfortunately, the posts by Lyric containing that have been edited so those bits have disappeared. This is some of it though:


..So theres evidence that I was not making it up (don't want to be accused of doing so!) , she did say it but the post has since then been altered to remove it. My reaction to it was the same as yours Kathy

First off the pedophile... Some dude posted a video on S2C that was, in my opinion and others, porn that involved children. He was registered on MTS2, S2C and here. His email address nor his ip address was shared on my end. I pointed out to either Delphy or Lyric that this guy belonged to some girllover site and after he posted said video there he was banned. I had already banned him from here since he was requesting child woohoo among other things. This guy is a legit danger to the community. This is a man that wants to have, as he admitted, intercourse with children. If other people shared his email address, which is doubtful, that is different than sharing someones real name and home address.  
 
Also the check thing made me giggle.. I don't know wtf kind of stores she is shopping at but no store I have ever been to has had such sign posted.
 
One last thing.. Lyric shared files. Constantly on msn. She sent them to me. She sent them to staff members on this site. She sent them to staff members on other sites. I would share files on msn as well. Not saying it's right or it isn't because I have long since removed myself from the whole paysite debate just saying people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

(Slight paranoia in this rant, but it's stuff that could've happened y'know...)

I just finished reading the latest installment to this "info sharing saga"... while this isn't new material for me, once again, I am disgusted at what I'm seeing with the whole concept of that captured thread.  That information, regardless of how little it may seem or even if it was a "private" forum, has no right to be handed out to anyone in such a manner.  It wouldn't be a big deal if it was just user names, but they had to go in and add people's real names also... which I'm highly sure those listed do not appreciate at all.  No one beyond the administration should know that info, and for one of the co-owners of the site to use blatant disregard to that fact is quite disturbing for me.  All of this for something as simple and comparably insignificant as a few DBPF package files being shared...  This whole security issue could've been prevented had they not openly shared with their FA's... and even though the incriminating screenshots have censored the real names of those listed, the fact of the matter is this:  

Suppose Coconut was not the type of person that he/she is... and that instead of warning everyone about this happening, decided to take this list and use it as a way of taking someone's identity?  (If you're reading, Coconut, no offense to you... I have a great amount of respect for you coming out and sharing the truth about this.)  Granted, there's not that much information on that list other than people's names, user names, and a few emails, but that's all a person needs to get started on finding out more information about a potential victim.  Speaking on what a police officer once talked about in a seminar about identity theft, you'd be amazed at what you can find on a person, even by using Google these days... one could perform a search for your user name to see where you've signed up at around the web, and if you've been quite active in releasing any sort of detail about yourself, they'll do whatever it takes to find it and add on to what else they know about you.  

It's the sad, sick truth that people like that are out there in the world.  You can't just trust anyone with people's information and release it like that, private or otherwise.  Hypothetically speaking, out of all the FA's that have gone through that thread before, how many are still even active to this day?  And suppose any of the FA's that are gone had done the same as Coconut by taking screenshots of or copying and pasting those names elsewhere, only for other motives rather than exposé?  It may sound paranoid and tainting of me to say that, but you never know what people intend to do.  

They may think it's fine to cover up such a fact by deleting dissenting posts about their actions, but seeing it the way that I've mentioned, this could've been a lot worse for everyone than what it is now had there been someone like that in their ranks.  I truly wish the best for those on that list, and however many other "blacklists" there may be.  It's ridiculous how bent out of shape people can get over sharing a bunch of stuff for digital people... whatever happened to the concept of just playing the game and having fun?  Yeesh... :angry7:

(I sorry if this stings people, but this is just how I feel deep down in my heart about the whole thing.  I've always believed we, as a community, were supposed to be having fun instead of having to deal with and worry about safety risks such as this... and it's frustrating when I see it happening, and feel that no amount of what I say will matter much in how certain people will continue to act in the example that has been shown to us...)

I am completely astounded by it.  I have always thought of the owners of TSR as polite, respectable people, whatever the community may think of the fact they run a Sims paysite.  I was really inclined to believe the recent statement on that basis, until I saw this.

After being pointed to some evidence, I have made screenies and bookmarked it in case it's needed to prove that this garbage started back in 2006. This kind of thing makes me sick, to read what was in those posts and see them slavering and panting for any new information that jerk would drip down to their open maws... Pack of rabid hyenas, really. I won't say wolves, because wolves are respectable creatures that don't live in their own filth. You can guess what I think about the site in question.

My only thought on this is that almost EVERY site is a form of paysite including this one
People here donate (pay) so that everyone can download all the content freely
If No one donated then i bet this site would be a lot lot smaller IF it even kept going
And as for other sites that charge a fixed fee to everyone its simple . If you like their downloads enough to pay then do so if you don't then don't .
No one is forced to be a member of a paysite and the game will still be here whether people join paysites or not .
Finally I personally do NOT pay money to any site simply because (1) most of them dont have enough stuff to interest me and (2) because i am permanently disabled and what little money i have is used on things i consider more important in my life

The difference between a free and pay site is simple. All content on a free site is up for download, whether you pay a fee or not. You don't have to give a red cent to be able to get any item that you may want. There is no dividing line between people who can give money and people that can't, it's all the same for everyone when it comes to downloading any item.

On a pay site, if there is a certain item that you wish to have, you may have to give them a hefty chunk of change to get that collection of pretty pixels that your heart desires. Plus, they don't wish you to share that content with anyone else. They want other people to have to pay to get it, too.

I could go into this chapter and verse, but won't. My views may not be yours, your views may not be mine. I disagree with charging for the custom content because I know darn well that many sites that charge make a hefty bit and it's not all used to pay for the bandwidth. The money that goes to this site, the Wicked Nouk Family or the Sublime sites all goes to pay for the servers and bandwidth. By contributing to them, people enable them to stay open not only for themselves, but for every player of the game that wants to use their stuff. Hope that helps clear some confusion.

Well am glad to enlighten you on that Inge. We would all rather hope that such a thing was not be done, but it clearly is. TSR are sharing personal information of their members:

If you read more of the LJ account I linked to, you will see that not only do they share info of people banned, but also people who had donated to other sites (the owner of Habitat43 shares information of a subsrciber of hers in the last LJ update). And Paleoanth, an exSA, has recently shown PMs where TSR staff share information they suspect of being sharers - people who are just anti pay, who do not even have subscribtions to share TSR's files. Its crazy :/

Wow, I can’t believe that TSR thread… Makes me feel so….foolish for ever believing they were a respectable site. And they actually have the nerve to think that including viruses to track their files is a proper way of protecting their files?! Sigh…

One thing I was wondering though how exactly do they “catch” people donating to other sites?? Is paypal actually releasing that type of information to them or something?

wow haven't i opened a can of worms, for the beter i hope, interesting about tsr, i had need some time ago to go to tsr and download a mesh a free one, i actually followed a thread in modthe sims2, and my spyware detector almost had a nervouse breakdown and the same happened when i visited xxxsims, strange isn't it? going back to the original i fail to understand how a paysite can impose so called conditions of download when in most cases the skins are recolours of maxis meshes, i don't wish to see the sites destroyed i just want to see them join the mainstream and go free, well perhaps not all, some should just die a natural death i wont mention them but most of you know the ones i'm refering to.it was also sad to see some very talented artists withdraw their uploads and go to paysites, i certainly wont name them on this site but those of you who have been around a while know who i'm talking about
but let's put the original debate into context i asked why paysite meshes wern't included and the reply i recieved was quiet simple and straight to the point, i can't argue with that, however what i will question is why a lot of uploads are pictured in hair and clothing from paysites when those items are not available from this site, i had the same debate on modthe sims2 and thankfully that practice has now come to a halt. not all of us have access to these sites where the clothes and hair are available. so if they aren't included in the downloads lets not picture them so as to infer that they are, not every one out there reads the fine print or are savy enough to realise by the file size that what they are actually downloading is in reality a maxis default with a nice face, so please all i'm asking is if it can't be included lets not advertise it.
on a final note if custom is included let's only picture that and not what the artist has the sim decked out in in their game.yes yes i know they're for ilustration purposes only we had the same argument on modthe sims 2 and it didn't wash.

wow! there's gotta be money in selling sim mods to be able to afford 17 lawers and 3 judges.