Insimenator.org

Fair warning that intolerance for the non-conformist will not be allowed, nor will flaming of the religious. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions and will be given the oppurtunity to express those. And lets keep personal attacks out of it. We, the staff, do not wish to see the DL issue beat into the ground any further but you may discuss your views on witchcraft, satanism, christianity to your hearts content.
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This may not fit here, but why is Wicannism or whatever its called Satanist?

It isn't Satanic. That was the main point in the other thread. It is simply another belief that has been skewed, out of fear and ignorance of what it is, and twisted into something it isn't.

See, thats what I thought. Thanks for clarifying!

I offered this is in the other thread: I can explain why people confuse Wicca with Satanism, if people don't mind reading a longish post.

Please do Joy.

I'm interested.  ;)

I don't know anything about 'satanism' or 'wicca', but the church of Satan, founded by a guy called Anthon LeVay sure is interesting looking.
Not that I'm a satanist.    
LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

Read their eleven rules. Makes more sense to me than most Catholic ones (I was raised Catholic by mildly religious parents)
I'm not religious in the least and don't believe in either god/satan/jesus/spaghetti monster. I'm more of a universal energy spirit type person.

Thanks for opening this Kathy! this should get real fun hearing what folks believe in and learning about other faiths.

OK, here goes. Please keep in mind this post is merely to educate, k? If I give offense to anyone it's not my intent.

Now, it goes back a long time, starting with the Burning Times. The Burning Times happened during a part of the Middle Ages and Rennaisance in Europe and the Americas. We all know that both sides of the Christian organization (Protestant and Catholic) hunted down Satan worshippers, or people believed to be Satan worshippers, who'd signed their souls over to the devil. They were often accused and convicted of practicing Witchcraft, and over the next three centuries of religious persecution, Witches and Witchcraft were associated with Satanic practice. Since the modern church and modern Wiccans both use the terms "Witch" and "Witchcraft", many associate Wiccans with Satanism, because of the learned association between the two during The Burning Times.

There are 17 meanings to the word "Witchcraft", which adds to the confusion, and at least 5 unrelated meanings to the word "Pagan". This causes confusion on it's own. Both Wiccans and Satanists have referred to themselves as "Witches" (but not all). Some Wiccan and Neopagans prefer the term "Witch", and the founder of The Church of Satan, Anton La Vey, wrote a book titled The Satanic Witch.

There's alot of confusion between the Satanic inverted Pentagram (which, in all honesty, is rarely used) and the Wiccan Pentacle (an upright pentagram in a circle). People see the Pentacle and think it's Satanic. Many Wiccan worship the Horned God along with the Goddess. The Horned God (or Cernunnos or The Great God or Great Father or what you like), is a representation of the male aspect of the universe, the balance to the female aspect. He is a figure of nature, and represents the cycle of life in his death every autumn and his birth every spring. Many Christians see the Horned God as a Satanic figure, though neither is the same.

The Wiccan Rede. Many misquote it as being "Do as thou wilt", which is in keeping with Modern Satanic belief. The true Wiccan Rede should go as follows, however, "An' it harm none, do as thou wilt." Some add "Except in thine own defense it be." For any who are interested, here (http://www.puertasdebabel.com/wicca/beliefs/rede.htm) is the full Rede, illustrating how "Do as thou wilt" with no additions, is taken out of context.

There's a misconception that Hallowe'en is the biggest celebration among Satanists, Druids and Witches, and use it perform sacrifices. The truth: Samhain in the Northern Hemisphere is the source of modern day Hallowe'en. It's also the Wiccan New Year. It's a feast day to pay respects to the dead and honor their memories, and is quite similar to the Mexican Dia de los Muertos. It has been centuries since the druids performed their last human sacrifice (if they ever really did), and Druids are not Satan worshippers. The Satanist's major feast day is the day of his birthday, not Hallowe'en.

There's more, but these, I think, are the major points.

It's worth adding that the Horned God only became Satanic once Constantine got his claws into Christianity. Before he came along, Christian Xmas didn't include christmas trees or holly, and the inverted pentagram wasn't an evil symbol. Pagan symbols got twisted by him to make pagans and/or wiccans look like practitioners of evil when they're not - and while he did that, he had the gall to steal their symbols to "appease" them. Pff.

I'm pretty sure that's a big part to do with the Burning Times.

caffeinated.joy, as someone who's been Pagan since she was four, I think I love you.

The pentacle is a continuous star, within a circle (representing endless cycles).  The five points represent fire, air, earth, water and spirit - what is considered by Pagans to be the make-up of everything in life.

The symbol of the Horned God is:
(http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/X/m/2/hornedpent2.jpg)

Therefore, even an inverse pentacle is NOT a symbol of devil worship, but was twisted so people would think so.  It's merely a more masculine version of the traditional upright pentacle.  That's it.


Anyway, I don't think my religion has much of an impact on the way I play my game at all, other than my excitement of witches being added in, and the stereotypical "The Craft"-like OFB shop I had some girls set up, which the inclusion of witches now makes more entertaining.

Other than that, I try to make my Sims insanely happy to the point where I ruin some fun for myself.  It's rare they have more than one love and don't marry them, and Lucy Burb and her husband were the *FIRST* couple I've ever had get divorced in years of playing TS2.  Turmoil amongst my Sims, or failure, is something that is hard for me to do, because I have to get over my gamer instinct of doing everything perfect and "winning" to make myself do anything other than have them succeed.

The only time I used "religon" in my game was for one family in a recent neighborhood.  Both of the original sims in the house were popularity with wants of having 20 best friends.  For some reason I decided while playing them that none of the offspring would move out of the house and anyone in the house had to try for baby.  I worked up a story line about this being in accordance with his religon.  By the time the old man died, there were 16 decendants and spouses living in the house with 3 of the women expecting another 5 within one day of each other.

Oh, this was a 1x2 lot originally that I expanded to be a 2x2 just because I ran out of crib space.  lol

Once I'm done playing with the new witches, my neighborhoods will go back to being mundane places, no vampires, werewolves, zombies, aliens, plantsims or witches.  I see plantsims and witches as having too many bonuses to make life easy for them.  And I never did get the point of vampires, werewolves and zombies.  Then there's the children and generations following that have these extreme personalities that just make them so frustrating to play.

I think Maxis made a good choice in not including religon in the game because there's too many variants that would have to be included to please everyone.  I don't see these fairy tale witches as being Wiccan, Satanist, Pagen or any other form of religon.  They are simply fairy tale beings.

I don't use religion in my game at all, I just play it for what it is - escapism, a chance to explore things that would never happen in real life. Like vampires, aliens, tons of gay couples (to the point where there's more gay than straight!). And I have every intention of playing with witches when I get AL; I love throwing fantasy elements into an otherwise ordinary modern setting, makes it (and any story ideas they give me) more interesting :D

Vampires can be handy. Like, say, when you're stuck with a sim with no active points whatsoever? He was a nightmare to look after when he was mortal. It's also a good way to ensure your favourite sims never grow old.. I did go a little crazy on that though :angel:

As a practicing shaman, my religion doesn't come into the game at all. I appreciate the religion free nature of it. I love the sexuality being a non-issue as well.

That said, I am a sucker for Greek and Roman stuff. I have created temples in that motif that I loved decorating and having sims in them. Fortunately people tend to forget that Greek and Roman mythology was once a thriving religion for hundreds of years. That doesn't bother me.

I do download all of the ancient and middle ages stuff. And some of the magic mods. Mostly because it fits the eras I like. I have also downloaded quite a bit of interesting goth stuff. Again, the style appeals to me.

But as far as seriously putting religion of any kind into my sims, well, no. I have no desire for that level of realism. I take joy in a gaming world without religion where the focus is on people rather than worship and such. It is part of the joy of this game for me.

To me it makes no difference having occult-ish characters in the game or not.
I was raised a "christian", but never really caught on to it. But I was always too afraid to let go of it, just in case it really is real and ill go to hell afterwards.

Ive always been interested in cultures and ancient history, Ive even got my own private library of books on the Ancient Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Maya, Native Americans, Celts etc etc etc. And believe me, Ive read each one.

Interesting fact: All of them existed with strict rules on gods & sacrifice, people LIVED and BREATHED their gods, and even died for the honor of pleasing gods (when necessary). These people were just as fanatic believers as modern day scholars of religions.
They also had hundreds of years of belief.  Fought wars at times etc over it.

Nowadays people seem to think time began only 2000 years ago with the death of JC. When in fact its been going for THOUSANDS of years before that, and even THOUSANDS & MILLIONS of years before humans realized they were "special".  Everyone knows the earth was around for millions and millions of years. So its just weird IMHO to say that any religion is the BE & END ALL of humanity. That sounds like a very human statement to make.

Besides that, who is anyone with a set of beliefs to challenge anyone else's?
What proof do these people have to challenge?

I personally dont believe in a god/devil/heaven/hell. I just cant. Not after everything Ive sucked up. There is just too many different variants.
Besides, if a god is supposed to be flawless, why would he/she create a flawed religion that encourages people to go to war over their belief? That just messed up.

People NEED religion for some reason because they want something to cling to in times of need. The idea of an afterlife is soothing.

Anyways....this is going way-y-y-y-y off topic,
Im not even sure I really made my point clear.
MY OPINION: I dont believe in any specific deity. And i cant believe in a christian god that will condemn the millions of people BC (before christianity) to a hell to suffer eternally just because they had other religions back then before it was "invented".

I think religion is a tool used for the good or bad of society. People find salvation and soothing in it, and others try and exploit that to make those believers do what they want.

I still can't really wrap my mind around someone associating anything from the sims2 with religion... I just don't see the connection.
I was always glad for the fact that there is no religious content in the game, and I still am. Other than the time that I made a cult in my game that worshipped grilled cheese sandwiches that is.



I agree with you here to a certain degree. Personal faith is something that is usually harmless but I've always felt that organised religions are ticking time-bombs. They can manipulate people into doing some insane crap (murdering "heathens", suicide bombings, male and female circumcision etc)

That is not to say that I condone personal faith either. I am an atheist (read realist) and would prefer for everyone to let go of their security blankets and face reality, but I know that's not going to happen. I know that some people need these things and as long as they keep to themselves about it I'm not going to begrudge them and their childish behaviour.

I have been an atheist ever since I was old enough to think about the concept of religion. I think I was about seven years old and I had just finished reading The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. I think I remember equating god with Santa at the time; a lie that my parents told me to make a child happy.
I resent the fact that I was baptised as a baby when I was too young to know what was going on, never mind able to make a decision regarding the religion I was being forced into. It still annoys me that on paper I am "catholic" even though I don't believe in their deity. I do believe that just saying "I reject the holy spirit" is supposed to immediately exile you from the religion but the Pope has yet to ring me and tell me that I'm free *shrug*

I think that children should be allowed choose their own religion when they become mature enough to make the decision. Not have their parent's beliefs forced onto them from birth.

I play my sims a bit like Ancienthighway, religion doesn't really figure into the various games I have going. Sometimes fantasy (elves, and so on), but not formal religion. The closest thing I have to that is a few narcissistic sims on various lots who seem to worship themselves. Anyway, the game is just that, a game. It is escape from the mundane for a while. It is what it is, or rather, what we each make of it. No more, no less.

Admittedly, I have my religion implemented in some way with my sims... mainly in some of my storytelling and such.  (Or at least the stories that're in my head...  :lol:)  But most of the time, when I actually do get a chance to really play, my sims are on their own when it comes to that.  I think they worship each other while having free will more than anything... they don't look it, but those are some lusty little sprites I have, and not with their spouses.  Way to go ACR.  :clap:  

Anyways, I guess if I were someone else of my faith on the outside looking in on the subject of Sims 2 (mainly one of those old church elders or anyone else that's hardcore on believing anything outside of the Lord is "the devil"), I'd think they'd go all sorts of mad with all the claimed "anti-religious" themes and such... they did with just about every controversial video game, Harry Potter, Teletubies, and The Golden Compass, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had something to say about that.  Even though I don't really hold too much interest in the last three, I do think a lot of religious leaders and followers overreacted on the issue... like they fear that people of a religious faith who interact with anything related to those will loose faith in their teachings, and that said people aren't supposed to have an imagination outside of their beliefs without the two conflicting with each other.  Why shouldn't we have an expanded imagination?  I was always taught God made us the way we are for a reason... and if one having a big/outlandish imagination is a sin, then to me it defeats the purpose of being what one is.  But I digress on this one...  :lol:

I think we all know that video games and religion just don't mix well... too wide of a varied audience for the former to add in the latter.  Besides, games are usually just interactive stories/movies made by people who've used their imaginations and skills to bring them to life, and are not supposed to be confused as tools for teaching violence and non-religious practices.  They're just there for us to have fun on the side of RL.  That's how I see it.  ;)

(BTW, thanks for the info, Joy!  And Skeleton... it's scary to me (as a Christian who's not "supposed" to be knowing about them) that the "Satanic Sins" are almost exactly what I'm against.  Not to mention rules 1, 3, 6, 8, and 9 make a good amount of sense, and are almost, "Golden Rule" worthy (but not quite there).  Everything else is just a bit over my head and stuff I don't find "appeasing" to where I stand, especially in the vengeance part... but other than that... wow.  :shock:  It's amazing what you'll learn once you read between the lines.)

I’m an atheist (in spite of a lot of people, for some reason, assuming I’m not), and I’m not even baptised. I’ve never been drawn to any religion in a profound way – it just doesn’t ‘click’ for me. As for religion in the Sims 2, or the lack thereof, it’s never really factored in – the game is so utterly Politically Correct and it seems they’ve chosen the middle road in every aspect, including religion and sexuality. Something I really like, by the way; for once I’ve not felt like I’ve been overlooked. It seems to me to be pretty much the most open-minded game I can think of.

There’s enough argument about religion in the world without bringing it into a pretty innocent game like Sims 2. It makes me sad to see different groups in uproar over little things like witches or vampires or whatever it might be that got them going – like others have said before me, it’s a game and it’s a cute, nice, friendly, sweet game at that. There are other things to go ballistic over that are far more provoking for one reason or the other without nitpicking on a game that is guilty, at the most, of using fairytale clichés to depict supernatural beings.

I’m personally looking forward to what else they might come up with… unless it’s yet another creature with green skin, hah.

I just LOVE learning about different religions. Thank you so much for sharing.

Technically the Sims2 game does offer religion as a part of the Happy Holiday SP. I have to admit I was curious about it and bought it this past weekend. I want to see what it allows you to do. I saw the Menorahs but I am not sure if it's just a decoration or you can actually light a candle for each night. I don't mind them having a SP with these add ons and want to even see what happens if I play the Christian part of it. I realize a lot of it is incorrect (tree, actual birth of Christ, etc...) and that these ceremonies were taken from other ones, but they are being used as Christian holidays from what I can tell.

Lael, what's a Shaman?

Here's a small piece of information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism). Moderator J00wish/Just Call Me Odessa

I never understood the problem with witches in video games, or stories.  The witches portrayed in games, and folklore are very very different from witches as explained in the bible.  Wicca and paganism is different from this as well.  I saw a fair few girls dressed as witches at my church's Halloween party last year, and I would bet I'll see plenty this year as well.  Plenty of Christians can see the difference.

Honestly, I've never considered the Happy Holiday SP to be particularly religious. Before my family became Wiccan we were one of those families that seems to be the norm of today, did not go to church, somewhat athiestic but still kindof believing in a higher power, cuss using 'oh my god' 'jesus christ' 'jesus mary and joseph' etc etc without it actually meaning anything, and most specifically we still celebrated christmas and easter as well (holloween isn't really celebrated in australia). Alot of people do, even fullblown athiest. These holidays in my belief have transended beyond their religious purpose and have become instead apart of tradition and culture of the western world. Even now that I am wiccan I still give out christmas cards
to my friends and even gifts to the junior members of my family(who are stoked that they get 'xmas' twice a year). And I'm not above getting wasted with my friends at their xmas parties either :wink:

As to religion in the game, as enayla said the game is so politically correct that the thought of doing such never actually occurs to you. I have the Happy Holiday edition of sims 2 and I usually try to give them 'xmas' in seasons midwinter but half the time I forget anway. But to me the xmas thing I try to do isn't about religion it is more about my culture if anything.

In my Medieval hood I have a convent and a monastary, but that wasn't so much trying to add religion in my game but as way of controlling the population in a hood that only has 'try for baby' as an option:D

As to these witches in AL, I actually never saw them as 'wiccan' witches, or even 'satanic' witches for that matter. To me they are more like the witches in such works of fiction like 'The Wizard of Oz'. I even like the fact that if your witch becomes sufficiently evil enough their skin turns green, as a wiccan I would consider it the threefold rule taking effect, afterall karmas a b****. There are some wiccans who consider The Wizard of Oz to be offensive to wiccans/witches. Personally I don't see how, firstly because the witches on the story arent stylised on wiccan witches, and secondly the story also has Glenda the Good Witch which demonstrates in the story that not all witches are bad, which if anything would give witches in general good PR.

See shc this is what I totally relate to with the exception we aren't Wiccan. We have children so naturally we celebrate Christmas, Halloween and Easter. While Eric and myself are both atheist our children are allowed to choose what they believe in. Two of our children are indeed Christians while one isn't. We do not judge our children for their choices.
 
In my game there is no religion. I don't play the way most people play and even if I did my game would remain the same. To echo what Enayla said I like the political correctness of the game that there is a complete middle ground. I do have a religious set that I created for someone else in my folder that sadly has never been put to use.
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the whole issue with witchcraft in the old testament had to do with what witches mainly did back then: communicate with the dead. (Solomon and the Witch of Endor for example)

I can see how god would be somewhat displeased if addressing a soul directly in heaven and that soul suddenly takes a trip downstairs when summoned by a witch. Perhaps even faintly peeved. After all, isn't god supposed to have dominion over heaven? And you have some mortal hauling out people without so much as an 'excuse me, can I borrow so and so?' Makes sense in that context. Now death is a bit harsh, but hey, god wants to discourage such impolite behavior, and that should get people's attention on the matter. Generally, the dead people summoned weren't exactly thrilled either. You get to ultimate bliss and some shmuck hauls you back to the dirt ball you thought you were finally done with for a chat? Talk about rudeness!

It was never directly stated that satan had a thing to do with it. This was purely an ability of an individual and apparently one people were supposed to leave unused. Most old time occult matters dealt mainly with ways and means of manipulating spirits. There is another subtle reason it would be frowned on and encouraged to depart. Shamanism.

Shamanism is one of the oldest spiritual practices on the planet. And it deals mainly with spirits and communication with places other than here. Naturally, if you are founding a religion, you cannot have a local shaman coming along behind you going 'so and so says you're getting it all wrong'. In grand biblical tradition, you put such people to death because they just tend to stick around and continue calling bullshit. Also, people tend to get very caught up with the possibility of communicating with lost loved ones. Takes energy away from worship of a deity, ya know? So, you stick those loved ones in a place of ultimate happiness and tell everyone to leave them alone. Then you come up with a new name for those that practice old ways you are trying to stamp out: witch. Why? Because shaman still had the respect of many long centuries behind them. People would balk at the new rules. With the name change, it made it different enough to slip past people.

Just a thought I had out of the blue. Thought I would share it as mildly interesting as a line of speculation.

Excellant point.  There's evidence of shamans dating back to the Stone Age.  So when you say " you cannot have a local shaman coming along behind you going 'so and so says you're getting it all wrong'", you may just have it backwards.  Shamanism was there first :)

But it's not just the church that bullied shamanism aside, medical practice did also.  Shaman's were the healers and spiritual leaders of their tribe.  They focused, and still do, on healing mind, body and spirit.  Modern medicine believes in healing the body, controlling the mind and ignoring the spirit.  Modern churches focus on controlling the mind and saving the spirit.  Naturally shamans, to include all the various names for the practice, would be seen as a threat to medicine, which couldn't provide the same results scientifically, and the church, which couldn't accept it's interference with control.

I meant the departed were saying it. LOL:happy8: Tongue in cheek, so to speak. Naturally, the person starting an actual religion wouldn't appreciate having the ancestors sticking their departed noses in it, so they would cut off the shaman to shut them up.

OK, I was raised Christian, although I'm Jewish by birth.
I chose to return to the faith of my mothers.

Having said that, you'd expect that my sims are either Christian or Jewish. But they're not.
I simply made up my own Sim Religion for my sims.

To me, my Creator is too high and to holy to be put into a game. But I can't very well play without a religion either - it's a too alien concept to me. Religion is in my heart, in my soul, in my whole being. It makes me who I am and determines my actions.

And on a side note: we have children and don't celebrate christmas, easter or halloween. We do celebrate the Jewish holidays, though. Our children don't feel like they miss out on anything. Actually, they pity other children because they like our holidays infinitely much better. :)

Actually, Christianity was around long before the birth of Christ.  It is an erroneous thought that it only began then.

That's a big question. The wiki article is mostly right in a general academic bland way but also missing a few things as well. It is very much a matter of cultural context (who's teaching it from what nation, tribe and perspective). Some tribes take exception to the name being used at all since it is of Siberian origin. I am obviously not one of those.

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer, Odessa. I wanted to really consider my answer and I got sidetracked with that other thought, though it ties in. I'll probably answer in several posts, if you are that interested. Would hate to bore people...

I would like to see where you got this information from. According to all the information I have seen/read/heard on the subject Christianity began as a jewish cult sometime after the death of christ.

Unless you are referring to Judaism, then indeed you are correct.

I am so interested in Wicca, Paganism and Witchcraft. I love how it is so focused on Nature and Spirits. And I think its really quite sad how someone takes a religion(s) like that and twists it into something completely different.

I  wasn't really raised in religion, I mean Ive been baptised and such, but I havn't been to church since I was like 2.

I really want to look into Wicca. Anyways.

As for witches in the sims. I think all that Maxis has done is add another awesome spin on an awesome game. I don't think the witches were meant to cause a stir.

We should remember that Satanism is a Christian creation & only has relavance in the Christain community, to embrace Christianity is also to embrace Satanism, it's like the yin & yang in Buddism or negitive & positive in physics, one cannot exist without the other but somewhere between them is perfect balance or point of stability. I do not support Satanism just as I do not support Christianity, I don't follow any religion or institution as I find this restrictive to growth & evolution.

   I think witches in the sims is a great new feature & shouldn't be labeld with satanism or any other religous negitive view. This view is also a stab in the back to all the innocent women & men accused of witchery who were humiliated torchured & slaughterd in the name of God, in my understanding these people died because they were considerd a threat to the corruption & lies that existed with those that controlled the church.

   It is also my view that Christianity is not only unproductive in our modern world but is seriously destructive (in too many ways to explain here). If we want understaning & answers to life we just have to look around us & within us if we can let go of fear enough to see this.

 Christianity is a compilation of religions, philosiphys, & teachings which has been used to control the masses using fear & blind faith as its tool suppresing the natural flow of knowledge & growth.

Okay..there is no way I can join this thread after this post with all the double standards.  

Don't anyone dare run down and/or twist the beliefs of wiccans, paganism, or any other non Christian belief.  I am not saying anyone should or it is okay..

But there is all kinds of insults and nontruths thrown towards Christians.

Yes, throughout history there has been many terrible things done on behalf of Christianity..not taught by Christ but made up by man..

And mankind in the name of any belief has done terrible things throughout history.

The great thing is that no matter what our beliefs are, we can play our game however we enjoy.

I am an Atheist however I have always been the type to have a very open mind. I have studied Buddhism, Paganism and was (kinda) raised Christian. I have had several different friends with different beliefs and always took the time to listen. I believe most religions have something good to preach. However I am strongly opposed to any organized religion as I believe much like Berilac Burrows who posted above me that such institutions turn good principles into tools of manipulation, control and sometimes violence.

The Sims witches are such a staple of modern folklore in the way they were represented in AL I can’t understand how anyone can be offended. Like come on, green skin, cauldrons, flying brooms, cats, pointy hats, wands… This has nothing to do with real Wiccan religion, Sims witches are a joke! Those who got the impression that there was something similar with these witches and Wiccans simply do not know enough about Wiccans to know the difference (or to know that Wiccan beliefs are nothing close to “evil”).

To me magic is the representation of imagination and wonder. To be able to do magic is something I always wished for as a child. This world of ghosts, magic, witches and vampires etc. I knew none these things were real but I always was the type to daydream about worlds far far away. When we are young and our imagination has yet to be crushed by adults and TV, to me having magic in the game reminds me of those days where everything was still possible. It sends such a message of simplicity and innocence that I simply cannot wrap my head around all this controversy…

Problem is, that there will always be people being offended by one thing or another. The only question is if their opinion matters, cause when it comes down to religion and games and/or books (Harry Potter anyone?) their stance is ridiculous and mostly shared by fanatics. Any game company or publisher aiming for major sales will do their utmost to keep their products clean.

The solution is rarther simple. If someone is offended by the contents of a game or a book, they shouldn't buy it. But they shouldn't try to shove their opinion down other's throats. Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions.

I think religions was like mankind, they can be corrupted(they were ruled by humans afterall), as long as it teaches people to live life on the good side its ok

I myself am an agnostic(I'm open about the concept of religion but don't really believed them), I prefer to think that there were no afterlife, when I die I just vanished into nothingness, I think its better that way(makes you treasure your current life, and not too uptight in doing things in this life so you can go to heaven one day)

as for sims game, I'm their god(heheheh...), afterall, I do control ther lives, and the concept of witchcraft in AL is pure imagination(even the spells are named like the spells from Harry Potter books)

and screw those who were offended, its just a game, no more no less, they're just some petty, closed-minded, uptight people that has nothing better to do but to try and stir some troubles

Fascinating thread. I read alot of info about Wicca and the Craft, so either we have some Wiccan/Pagan posters, or y'all have done your "homework". Berilac Burrows, while a little extreme (IMHO) in anti-religion views, is correct that Satan is a Christian entity, and Witches don't even believe in Satan, so how could we worship something we don't believe in? I'm not Wiccan, but I'm a Witch. I'm a hereditary, traditional Witch...while Wiccans are Witches, not all Witches are Wiccan. ;) I do, however, follow the Rede "An' it harm none, do what thou will". And like any Pagan, I believe in any excuse for a party (a little like Sims heheh).

As far as this controversy over the addition of the Witch in AL, my opinion is that there are just people out there who aren't happy if they aren't outraged by something. Why didn't these same people freak out about vampires and werewolves? Because something else had their undivided attention at the time, most likely. I've become accustomed to such absurd alarmist ranting and raving...I've played Dungeons and Dragons since I was 14 (that's 28 years) and I've heard it all. However, I have never seen anything but a bunch of nerds sitting around a table arguing over how to resolve a battle equation...nope, never sacrificed a chicken ever. Like RPGs, the Sims is a game based on blatant, shameless escapism (at least that's what it is for me). And quite frankly, I find the portrayal of the Witch to be stereotypical caricature that is utterly delightful and just plain fun (although the green skin on the bad Witch is hideous...thank you Spookymuffin for the replacement default). I don't really make religion a big deal in my game, but I do incorporate it a little bit with the holidays. I have Jewish, Christian and Pagan Sims and they celebrate their holidays, but that's about as detailed as religion gets in my neighborhood. I just think that if something offends someone, they can opt to not have it in their game. Adult content is a perfect example. It's available, but you don't have to put it in your game if you don't want it. If someone doesn't want supernatural characters, they can cure them.

And Angel2365, there is alot of info on Wicca and Paganism on the internet and alot of fantastic books available. Raymond Buckland, Scott Cunningham and Silver Ravenwolf are good authors to start with.

Blessings,

--Stygia

At first I wasn't going to post, but after spending time reading all the post I wanted to say WOW!!  I never seen so much info in one spot. Some I agree with, Some I don't. Being a christian myself and being around a little while I've seen people use religions of all sorts to accommidate their world. I know a women who claims to be a wiccan, so she can cheat on her husband. I know an atheist who choose not to believe in God only because He doesn't want the rules or the belief that his actions are a sin (according to the bible and some religions). But there are a lot of people who decide as they get up in years that now is the time I better start believing. I probably won't be around when most of you grow old ,But I would be interested on how many of you change your opinion when death nears.  But like I've said to him if he's right we all die, nothing happens but eternal nothingness, But if he's wrong OUCH. If I follow his belief theres a chance I could burn or nothing. I would rather be safe then sorry and yes that maybe a wrong way to put it. But if your talking to a nonbeliever you have to put it in a way they can see. By the way that atheist had his daughter baptised. I guess when it comes to somethings it is better to be safe then sorry. I guess, Always be true to yourself and don't be a hypocrite. World has way too many all ready. just my opinion

Then she is not a Wiccan. Just because someone is Wiccan doesn't mean they automatically follow a poly lifestyle. Wicca is a religion. Poly is a lifestlye choice. The rede states "Do as you will and it harm none." Cheating is definitely hurtful on her hubby and for her to use Wicca as an excuse for her actions is just plain wrong.

Just my two cents.

How can you "choose" to believe in something? You either do or you don't.

If you were to consciously choose to believe in something wouldn't that mean that you don't believe in it at all but just wish that it were true?

Also, that seems to be a very strange reason to become an atheist. I mean, I know people who don't agree with all of the rules of their specific religion but they just ignore those rules.
I'm an atheist. Not because I didn't like any part of a religion, I'm an atheist because I find all religions fanciful and unbelievable; not to mention the mountain of evidence that contradicts them (I'm a scientist, I can't ignore the evidence!).

So, in conclusion, I don't think that anyone chooses to believe in anything. Belief isn't a choice, you choose a religion (or lack thereof) based upon your belief.

I am into science as well. Without telling what I do for a living, I deal with it day to day, put it that way. I feel that some people do choose in what to believe from politics to religion. They make the choice based on what they agree with. if they agree with it spiritually or (as in your case scientifically)you review the evidence and choose to believe that that science proved that there was no God. But some people make choice's completely based on how they want to live, not based on what they believe. Like it was a hard struggle for me, because of my huge science background, You are absolutely right about that huge amount of evidence that say there is no God. But I choose to ignore that because my belief is stronger, my faith is stronger. That's why I said be true to yourself and not a hypocrite. Now understand I'm not saying I disagree with you I'm just saying that these situations have happened, right or wrong. People make decisions purely based on life needs sometimes and not what they believe.

And CJ, Thats why I think she's a hypocrite, She told me that wiccans worship the earth and that like the animals, no one has the same mate. I just believe what she said because he bought it. But you could see its killing him. I really know absolulely nothing about wiccans,I just saw the pain someone used to cause pain with it and made my opinion based on that. But man, I've definitely learned some here about it . I would tell him but she's got him brained washed. Someday his eyes will open and maybe he will take a walk.

Interesting thought. Personally, I don't think, that I would move any closer to any form of organised religion. I'm already in my mid 40ies and had my share of lost loved ones. Did it move me closer to what I was born and raised with? The answer is no.

See, I was born an raised a catholic. Now I consider myself an agnostic and I can't imagine finding any answer in Christian or any other believe in the future. Simply because I don't believe in their concepts. That doesn't mean that I totally discard everything they're believing. If it was only about Jesus, he would be kind of a role model for a decent living. But it isn't. Over the centuries people have added the contents of the old Testament which festures a vengeful, jealous god, pretty much the same as the gods of the Hellenic or Roman pantheon. There has been much bending and stretching to make this concept half logical. Same goes for the trinity, which has been introduced at a much later time and - together with the saints - is basically the return to politheism.

The world is some billion years old and humanity took the stage some minutes ago as far as earth's history is concerned. We're insignificant and the few thousands of years of monotheistic religions are even more insignificant.

If I was to believe in something, it would be a neutral entity, neither good nor bad. It would be the force of nature itself.

oops, double post

I have never associated the sims with any religion of any sort.  We all have to deal with so much stuff in our daily lives that it would take away the fantasy and fun if you threw so much real world stuff into the game.  Whatever religion, if you have one at all, we can all agree that the sims is fun.

As a Muslim, I'm pretty strict with my values according to Islam. When I started to play the sims, I was having fun and wouldn't take my game to the heart. It's just a game. When I saw creators making the sims more diverse, I was so excited. I got inspired to create sims and share my religion of Islam and the way Muslim women act or Muslims in general. I got welcomed by the Mods and answered PM questions to fellow members. I wanted the Sim community to know there is a Muslim player on the board. I don't know much about Wicca but to each it's own. I'm not for White magic or Black magic. I believe in it but from what I have been taught and what Islam says to avoid having magic put on you. That's another topic.

 So the other day, I checked out APT life and as a Muslim, anything that is has to do with the Devil or what is it? Witchcraft is a major sin to actually commit the act. Well, it's in a game. I mean it's just a game for real. It's not like I'm really going to allow myself to do this outside the sims2. I play the sims as a hobby and past time of mine. I don't know why anyone would get all butt hurt about a simple game. IT'S JUST A GAME! Sorry but for real. Not to be a prude but grow up. Stop whining about the game having "witchcraft" or "satanism". If it bothers you that much, don't buy the game and wait for another EP maybe the next one will be all about Islam. Let's see someone of ya'll really "FREAK" out.

Amira

amar el7ob: I think it's awesome that we have so much diversity among our players, and as a Muslim, you have a great opportunity do be an "ambassador" of sorts. Personally, even though I'm a Witch, I am curious about things that I don't understand, including (especially) belief systems. Not everyone would have a meltdown over a Sims EP that focused on Islam...I know I wouldn't. I'd buy it, partly becuase I'm a Sims junkie ;) , and partly because I enjoy diversity in my game (I have Sims with Jewish items from Holiday Stuff, so why not other cultures?). The only belief system I really have a problem with is Satanism, and my problem with it isn't based on ignorance, I have known several Satanists and understand what they're about. So if the Sims ever came out with an EP that really *was* focused on such a concept, I would not buy it. But I wouldn't rant and rave that it should be banned either! Just my two (or so) cents.

Blessings,

--Stygia

Stygia: Unfortunately, there's many people out there who would have a screaming fit if a game about Islam came out. "ZOMG INFIDELS YADA YADA". I personally wouldn't care because I've made the choice to not purchase another product from EA so long as they continue to use secuROM. If they didn't, I'd buy it in a heartbeat! I'd love to know more about Islam. But that's a different can of worms. :)

I'm a beginning Pagan. I came to Paganism through juvenile reasons-hex spell on a guy I liked who ended up liking someone else instead of me (long story, don't ask). I left it because I would have to *gasp* study the religion and my 15 year old self only wanted the instant gratification of seeing the guy turn into a toad :). It was only last year that I picked it up again because it simply clicked with me. I can't really describe it except as that. I hesitate calling myself a Witch or a Wiccan or an Astaru or anything because I know nothing yet even though I've been studying and keep a small altar on my dresser.

So, how does that figure into my game? It doesn't, really. I'm merely the Mother Goddess and I enjoy the power trip of having a bunch of pixelated beings responding to my commands and of having arranged marriages and bizarre experimentation (ACR + various auto woohoo mods and more sims hacks + 9 sims who have little self control=47 sims on one lot before the death of the first generation and the near death of my computer). Yet I get bored fairly quickly with my sims and move on within a few weeks to a month, leaving the neighborhoods to rot on my harddrive until I delete them.

:wave: thank you Kathy, I have :study:studied Wicca myself and it really bothers me when people say its satanic, Wiccans don't even believe in Satan, so you can't worship what you don't even believe in, I now think of myself as Agnostic now, but I still respect the Wiccans, and other Pagans, and I love the new Sims pack, Apartment Life, I also love that they put Witches in it like The Sims 1 did, I wondered if they were going to do it or not, and they finally did, anyway thanks again Kathy. :smilebox:

one more thing, I would have loved it if they had put some more diversity in the Sims 2, Like Muslims and maybe Ascetic Jews, and Hindu's and Buddhists , I've tried to create that in my game myself, because I like to play with different kinds of characters, like I'm white But I have created a lot of black family's and Asian family's, maybe they will have more in the Sims 3, but I still love the witches, Zombies, Werewolves, and Vampires in the game, and Of course the Aliens, just try to remember its just a game, have fun and don't think about it so much, peace to everyone, and Happy Halloween.



:worship: I feel the same way I too am a Agnostic, though it took me years to figure that out but I know now that is the right word for me, anyway I totally agree with what you said, and though I do put different characters in my game who might be followers of some religion or another, even though I don't believe in any of them, and even though it wouldn't bother me if they put any of them in the game like Muslims, I don't think its really necessary, The Sims has always been about fantasy which is what makes the game so great and it is the best game ever, at least until the Sims 3 comes out in Feb 09 HeeHee.:worship:

By faith I am I suppose what you would consider Christian gnostic.  Religion of all types fascinate me.  I like seeing realism in my sim stories and that includes sometimes religion whatever belief system that might be.
Yes it's a game but it's also a place of our imagination or fantasy and in my mind faith and beliefs can play into that.

Very informative--Thank you!

Your post makes me interested in learning more about Wicca!  :)

I could never get into putting objects that related to any religion that was close to my former one (typical modern-day Christianity) in my game. Stuff related to, say, Islam or Taosim or Wicca, that was okay, because it is all so exotic and fascinating to me. And the religion I was following was stressing me out, because I was constantly afraid of an afterlife of pain.
I don't really follow an organized religion anymore, and for the first time in my life I feel calm and unafraid. I just feel like many of the ones that say there is a God might have it wrong. The Bible contains several parts that, while they might not have been contradictions in the first few manuscripts of it, have been translated a million times and have turned into seeming contradictions, or perhaps the explanatory parts were left out.
I believe there is good and evil in this world, and want to know the truth about everything. But it's hard when so many religions scream "Pick me or have dire consequences!" How could I decide which one sounded the most logical, and which ones i could ignore that had the least awful afterlife option if they turned out to be wrong, you know?
 
On a side note, I think an Islam expansion kit would be kind of awesome if it included the fashions and architecture and deco associated with heavily Muslin regions. :)

Strangely enough i found this thread while doing a search on goth lol. Well anyway, I was raised a Baptist Christian, but through my teen years i started to feel disconnected from the religion,it wasnt until i was 18 that i began to explore things more, via the internet,  a gothic online community, i discovered topics of the occult,i was curious, but i wasnt ready to leave Christianity behind, at that point i thought i had no choice but to stay with it. When i was 20 years old, i was going through a hard time and i felt maybe it was time to read up on other spiritual beliefs, so i did, thats when i found Wicca, After alot of reading one day, i felt this connection form, in my mind all i could say was wow, i cant believe i didnt find this sooner. Months later, after much reading , and talking with elder Wiccans, i knew dedicating myself to this path was what i wanted and needed. Im 23 now and still a Wiccan. I consider myself a very spiritual person, and i believe in treating others how i want to be treated. There is no summoning of demons and such, that would be stupid and dangerous.my rituals and prayers consist of honoring God and Goddess, celebrating the holidays, and meditation when i need to clear my head. I an not anti christ or anti christian, i have read the bible, after all for the most part of my life i was christian. I believe the for the most part that the teaching of christ are good. Christianity just isnt for me, i have spend many years of my life following that faith, so i would know by now. I cant understand why so many people can bee filled with so much hate towards other people because of their beliefs or lifestyle choices. Their is no reason why everyone cant live in peace and be accepted. About sims 2:I dont have Apartment life , but i have seen plenty of previews and photos, and it seems like alot of fun, the witches look fun, i dont take them to be offensive because they are fantasy images, and portray no likeness to real witches, nor are they suppose to be like real witches, so no big deal. I think the people making big deals over it, seriously need to get a life, this is a game, a normal person knows the difference between a game and reality.




Keep an open mind and an open heart.

Blessed Be

Unfortunatly there are people from all faiths that have twisted concepts from their religion to better suit thier own agendas. I have known so-called devout christian men that dominate and terrorise their wives because they have interpreted the line 'love, honour and obey' to mean they had full power and control over them (and god damn the woman who forgot her place).

Funnily enough I once had a boyfriend who was convinced that I was going to cheat on him because I am a wiccan because his ex-girlfiend who was also a wiccan had cheated on him. Several police involved domestic disputes later I finally broke up with the paranoid jerk. Funnily enough I have never cheated on a partner ever in my life.

Your friend's 'wiccan' wife I shall put it bluntly is an idiot as well as a 'wanton woman'(trying not to say the S word here). Anyone who have even a rough knowledge of animals would know that there are quite a few species who 'mate for life' and there is even some who wouldn't even take another mate once that mate had died such is thier devotion.

I have learnt over time not to judge a person based on thier religion. My brother-in-law is muslim and although many people view this religion as degrading to women my in-law has shown me some beautiful passages from the Quran which shows the high esteem Mohummad had for women, partcularly his youngest daughter. And from my own research on religions in general I have come to understand that alot of the reforms Mohummad made for women which may seem overly restrictive in todays world were actually quite shockingly liberal during Mohummad's time (we should not forget that it was not all that long ago in our own society that a woman wouldn't dare go out in public without hat and gloves to 'cover' themselves). I don't think christianity had given women as many rights as Islam did although the Western world would like to think we did, truth is western women had to fight very hard for every right we possess now. I remember as a kid in the early '90's seeing on the news about the government trying to decide whether or not to abolish a law allowing men to rape thier wives, so you see we in the west are only relativly new at this as well.

So does that mean your female Sims are second class citizens in the eyes of your god and religion? And yes, I've read the Qu'ran (and the Bible too).

Faith is such an archaic concept. It started when people didn't understand the world they lived in. Now that we have better understanding of things, like the world is round and homosexuality is biological, there's really no more excuse to use religion for various acts of hate and bigotry.

It would be fine if people concentrated on the GOOD parts of their faith like being good, and loving their neighbor, etc., but that's not the case.

The 'Golden Rule' can be found in almost every major religion and many minor ones, some dated far before the Christian or even the Jewish eras. As in most religions, certain ideas were co-opted by the major religions of the time. I suggest you do a google search on the Golden Rule along with the variety of religious interpretations. Its amazing how the biblical form is almost verbatim compared to earlier versions from different religions.

I study religious studies in real life, and the sims is one of the places I go to when I don't want to have anything to do with religion for a while. So, I definitely do not associate my sims with religion in any way.

I've studied witchcraft & wicca, but realised I liked learning of them, but not actually practising them. Which is why I study religions.
Sim witches do not have anything to do with "real" witches, nor do they have anything to do with wicca. Wicca & witchcraft are so incredibly different from the sim witches. The only thing they have in common is that they can use a book to look up information. :p

I understand why EA is staying away from putting anything remotely resembling "real" religion into the sims. A lot of people from other religions would throw a fit, and it would probably hurt the sales.

Just a minor point for clarification. Witches were not burnt at the stake in the Americas (particularly Salem Village in the Massachusetts colony). The method of execution employed was hanging. Although one unfortunate was accidentally "pressed" to death in an effort to extract a confession. The accused was placed under a board and stones were piled upon it until a confession was extracted. Except this poor fellow refused to confess and got squished. (ewwww . . .)

Ugh, why am I not surprised at this topic? I thought fellow simmers would be more intelligent then to go mixing the game with satanism just because it has witchcraft. It's this type of intolerance that's the reason there are so many atheists in the world today, because people like that chick and those wackos in the Westburo Baptist Church (Oh God! Don't get me started on them) Try and make people believe that God is this intolerant dictator who casts anybody who isn't christian into hell. Those people make me happy that I've been raised to be a tolerant catholic.

As avid Harry Potter reader, the whole magic aspect of Apartment life was what got me hooked on the game, only a good like 15% of my sims actually live in apartments lol. Does this mean I support satanism? NO! It means I get a kick out of sicking a swarm of bees on my sim enemies  2mad


EDIT: OH CRAP! I didn't realize the the date of the last post on this topic! I assumed it hadn't been too long ago since this thread was still on the first page. Sorry for the necropost

*gets out her shotgun and shoots the zombies dead*

Phew! That was a close call.

Given its age, I think it's time to just let this topic rest. Consider it locked.