That's a big question. The wiki article is mostly right in a general academic bland way but also missing a few things as well. It is very much a matter of cultural context (who's teaching it from what nation, tribe and perspective). Some tribes take exception to the name being used at all since it is of Siberian origin. I am obviously not one of those.

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer, Odessa. I wanted to really consider my answer and I got sidetracked with that other thought, though it ties in. I'll probably answer in several posts, if you are that interested. Would hate to bore people...

I meant the departed were saying it. LOL:happy8: Tongue in cheek, so to speak. Naturally, the person starting an actual religion wouldn't appreciate having the ancestors sticking their departed noses in it, so they would cut off the shaman to shut them up.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the whole issue with witchcraft in the old testament had to do with what witches mainly did back then: communicate with the dead. (Solomon and the Witch of Endor for example)

I can see how god would be somewhat displeased if addressing a soul directly in heaven and that soul suddenly takes a trip downstairs when summoned by a witch. Perhaps even faintly peeved. After all, isn't god supposed to have dominion over heaven? And you have some mortal hauling out people without so much as an 'excuse me, can I borrow so and so?' Makes sense in that context. Now death is a bit harsh, but hey, god wants to discourage such impolite behavior, and that should get people's attention on the matter. Generally, the dead people summoned weren't exactly thrilled either. You get to ultimate bliss and some shmuck hauls you back to the dirt ball you thought you were finally done with for a chat? Talk about rudeness!

It was never directly stated that satan had a thing to do with it. This was purely an ability of an individual and apparently one people were supposed to leave unused. Most old time occult matters dealt mainly with ways and means of manipulating spirits. There is another subtle reason it would be frowned on and encouraged to depart. Shamanism.

Shamanism is one of the oldest spiritual practices on the planet. And it deals mainly with spirits and communication with places other than here. Naturally, if you are founding a religion, you cannot have a local shaman coming along behind you going 'so and so says you're getting it all wrong'. In grand biblical tradition, you put such people to death because they just tend to stick around and continue calling bullshit. Also, people tend to get very caught up with the possibility of communicating with lost loved ones. Takes energy away from worship of a deity, ya know? So, you stick those loved ones in a place of ultimate happiness and tell everyone to leave them alone. Then you come up with a new name for those that practice old ways you are trying to stamp out: witch. Why? Because shaman still had the respect of many long centuries behind them. People would balk at the new rules. With the name change, it made it different enough to slip past people.

Just a thought I had out of the blue. Thought I would share it as mildly interesting as a line of speculation.

As a practicing shaman, my religion doesn't come into the game at all. I appreciate the religion free nature of it. I love the sexuality being a non-issue as well.

That said, I am a sucker for Greek and Roman stuff. I have created temples in that motif that I loved decorating and having sims in them. Fortunately people tend to forget that Greek and Roman mythology was once a thriving religion for hundreds of years. That doesn't bother me.

I do download all of the ancient and middle ages stuff. And some of the magic mods. Mostly because it fits the eras I like. I have also downloaded quite a bit of interesting goth stuff. Again, the style appeals to me.

But as far as seriously putting religion of any kind into my sims, well, no. I have no desire for that level of realism. I take joy in a gaming world without religion where the focus is on people rather than worship and such. It is part of the joy of this game for me.

And that is the sticking point. Wiccan stuff would be unwelcome because it has been declared Satanic. So, how do you reconcile that view? This is why people are upset. This is why the re-education attempt that ended badly with hurt feelings all around. Everyone is NOT welcome under those conditions.

As for defending herself... she did. Our opinions and conversations here have no meaning to or for her. She chose her course of action. Rather publicly, I might add. I refuse to be chastised for discussing that behavior and its possible causes. It goes both ways. Someone expressed that they would have apologized for rudeness, but will not have that chance because they are now banned from there. Everything has been fair, regardless of how things are expressed here.

People tend to give what they get. I have seen plenty of talking down coming from your posts. Let us not forget 'petty' being tossed around by you. Sadly, with this kind of topic and the deep emotions attached to it, people will get rather rigid in manner and language. It is the nature of it and simple enough to counter. Don't participate.

:saber:

The object of starting all of this, if I understand Kathy correctly, was to get various opinions on this subject. When one chooses to accept something blindly and state it as a fact without bothering to check on it, it is in fact ignorance. It cannot be explained away as anything else. Just because you are taught something, especially within religious context, does not make it true. When you take the time to examine and study a subject, within and outside of religious dogma, then you can make a claim that is not in ignorance.

To make the claim that someone is demonic, well, I cannot give credence to such a person's ability to make statements on another religion. No more so than when that same individual refuses correction on incorrect assumptions made in ignorance of fact. I would be doing myself a disservice and society by simply saying nothing. They will still have the same opinion, no doubt, as they did before I stuck my long winded foot in it.

To accept blindly, without study or careful thought, that is the very essence of ignorance. This is the way that tyrants and genocides have gained their power within the world through the ages. It is how books are burned and ideas stagnate because they fall outside of religious dogma.

While each is entitled to their own preferred flavor of worship, to do so in a manner that is disrespectful of others is hardly acceptable. When your beliefs become an infliction and pain to those outside of yours, why are we to say nothing? You mention taking a stand. This is exactly what is being done. Yet you take it back with the other hand. We shouldn't be taking a stand against what said and done because it is her right to do what she did. That is true. And now we exercise our rights to discuss and disagree with those same actions. You cannot have it both ways. It applies equally or not at all.

This isn't dismissing views, by the way. It is disagreeing on the foundation of knowledge and its application. At the very least, it is discussing plain rudeness in expression. The original words used were meant to be negative and insulting. Kind of hard to just swallow that without needing some Heimlich. Silence = condoning. Therefor I am not silent.

I applaud this. Neither side nor any will ever concede. Basically what I tried to say but replacing belief with knowledge. A belief can be wrong, but knowledge rarely is and is easily corrected for accuracy.

I would very much like you to explain how to live life without judgment of any kind. True, there is the majority/minority factor where society allows the majority to determine right and wrong. Been part of the human experience since we stopped living in simple family groupings back in prehistory. True, every single opinion has its own validity or none do.

In order for a determination to be made, knowledge is important. Will you equate ignorance with incorrect or wrong? The statement that witches are satanic is in fact ignorant. Let's put this in another context. I choose to use a particular style of swastika as a holy symbol. You glance at it and decide I am a Nazi. You are ignorant of alternate patterns and their meanings and can only come to an incorrect conclusion based on a social anxiety concerning a similar form of symbol. The one I am referring to is a Native American symbol and I refuse to not use it because another nation corrupted their own solar symbol with opposite facing arms from mine.

The same can be said for the pentagram in regards to satanism.



*Snorts* To consider the words 'stupid' or 'ignorant' a threat is amusing. An insult yes. Threat, not by any legal standard nor meaning of those words. How generous of you to make them so. 'You're going to hell' ... well, I'll grant the merit of that one when you place the entire sentence used rather than just a snippet. As you have it, I can vaguely see it if the person is standing over her physically with fists, weapons, a cold or something more than just an internet 'verbal' impact upon her physical person.

The actual quote is: " Good day, if I'm demonic as you claim and you Abrahamic Hell exists, we'll be seeing each other soon."

Hmmm... let's consider a moment. Well, perhaps one could interpret that as a threat, were one being at the harshest level of lingual exactitude. Or, more generously, that when the two parties in question reach their ordained end (determined by their own genes, lifestyles and simple luck versus outside influences) they will share accommodations in a scenic destination lacking working air conditioning.

As for "you'll pay"... I read the entire thread line supplied on page 4 Post #67. At no time did anyone at all use those 2 and a half words. Nice! Thanks for throwing your own wood (words) onto the debate fire. You'll pay is indeed potentially threatening. Even probable as threatening. Would be a fair argument if it had in fact been used at all.

Let's take a look at your own wording, shall we?

"Flooding her forum" Do you mean her thread? Or her actual entire forum? I am puzzled. If you mean the thread... your idea of flooding and my own understanding of that word (in an internet context, naturally) must differ. Is flooding to be understood as having any amount of dissenting opinions at all? The correction of perceived ignorance is perhaps flooding? Arguing your perspective is flooding? Losing your temper is flooding? My opinion is that, concerning the thread, you need to choose your terms more carefully for debate accuracy.

If you did in fact mean the actual forum, I'll have to take your word for it that it is the case. I do not belong to it nor would I now. I know that I and my opinions, my 'judgments' based on knowledge, experience and generally accepted societal definitions would be unwelcome. On reading the single thread in question, this is proven. So, DL can exercise her rights to run her site as she clearly sees fit and I exercise mine to not participate there in any way. Neatly solved, no fuss no muss.



As for this last section... this is the entire reason I responded. Yes, in fact, we know DL is wrong. Knowledge trumps ignorance. Belief does not equate to right. Knowledge does. DL showed her knowledge lacking. JOOwish has her knowledge correct and displays it accurately. Your use of 'petty' applies far more to you than to her. Nice way to subtly insult. I chose to emulate you.

Your constant arguments through this whole thread has been based on people judging others. Your own words can't carry their weight because you are trying to judge others for their lack of restraint on your chosen ideal. The probability of DL being right is nil. Show me in no uncertain terms that she can be. You cannot. I do not accept your philosophy. For that is what it is.

No human being can function without making judgments. We make them thousands of times over the course of a day. Some are correct, some not. But this is how our society works. Judgment can be good and it can be bad. It depends on knowledge, experience and common ground to work for the best of all. Remove one of those and it fails, sometimes grandly. DL showed poor judgment. J00wish did not. Yours, Gambler, isn't looking so hot right now.

Returning now to the actual thread here... I am just sad that this kind of behavior is defended. Equality is necessary but far from present. That remains the biggest issue of our society. The overlapping of freedom of speech with freedom of religion is a tangled thorny mire. The two don't work well together. DL exercised her religious rights at the expense of others' right to speak. That cannot be denied. That is also the price of the internet. So, accept it, move on and let go.

There is this constant need in people to be right and to beat it into the heads of everyone else. We have so far to go. I am no better in that respect than anyone else. Thus my foray into this thread. I'll return to lurking now.

:lurk:

These are utterly awesome! Thanks for bringing them back to us.:love2:

Loving it! Any chance of Apollo and Artemis? *wistful, hopeful look*