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31  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 27, 2007, 06:19:14 pm
Look I know Miros1 and I are very much at odds in our opinions on this issue.  While we're bound to both think the other is the ignorant party it does come to very much an opinion and the fact that we both think we are right.  I've backed up my opinions with what i see are "facts" or "proof".  Whether someone reads the same thing or even think they are valid is up to the reader.

I'm well aware that EA is the deciding factor and that they've been inactive on enforcing the issue.  Then again I've got heard people say over and over  "don't get EA involved! bad things will happen".  I think the biggest reason for EA not to get involved is that lawayers cost money and they likely won't recoup much if they go after a site (in comparison to what they would be spending).  Again, the argument is still rather moot if EA just sits still but I'm going by what they have actually written in print in the meantime.  

That said I'm sticking to my guns and my beliefs and I don't see them changing anytime soon.  As for MTS decision I still think its a win for pirates (see http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=240944 for responses to see) but its all up to eye of the beholder. Some see it as a win for paysite meshes being banned from uploads and I can see that point of view as well. either way its a fair decision.

I still think the argument that smaller sites can't pay for costs with free hosting and free file hosting has been dismissed.  It all goes to whether its ok to charge for content or not; some are fine with it, I'm not.  I'm not spitting on CC creators even if they are paysites (except maybe the ones with terrible content) , I'm just saying I don't like their actions and attitudes on how they run their business  and I hope people continue to circumvent them and just get their material on PMBD. :punch:
32  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 26, 2007, 06:19:04 pm
Quote from: miros1;844345
Wrong answer.  Ain't no free hosting worth having that will let you have zip files as downloads or are horribly limited on disk space or bandwidth or plaster your site with ads or popups or have so many other rules that you can't untangle them enough to figure out what you can have.  I've looked.  Face it, "free hosting" is intended for people who need to put up 20 pictures of Grandma's birthday party, not people who are going to have 100s of files downloaded 1000s of times per day!

I suspect the loophole that's allowing music file downloads from free hosting will be closed soon, since hosting music files for which you don't own the copyright is illegal by any measurement.

Also, stop implying that having a paysite is obviously wrong.  Ain't nothing obviously wrong in the whole situation.  


Well your implying that the entire music blog industry is incorrect on how to share files. Being able to download miusic files from these sites is widespread and works amazingly well. I'd say music blogging is the new p2p. So I completely refute your arguments. I think today's kids could weave around the spam on them much better than "granny" could to get her pictures.  

As for if doing music downloads this way is illegal or not is kind of the same thing as saying whether paying for sims downloads should be illegal or not.  I'd say yes, you obviously say no.  I know where you stand and yes I think you are in the wrong if you support paysites. It's ridiculous to claim that copyrighted music sharing is illegal (you are right) and say that sim paysites selling CC is not (they don't a copyright on the items they sell and you can't sell Sims CC. Read the EULA).  

Quote from: miros1;844345
EA, the only one on your list with legal standing -- they can get cease-and-desist order if they really want no paysites.  Until then, no matter what gets published with whatever attribution... it's hearsay at best and forgery at worst.  Show me a legal document signed by a judge and published on the Maxis site, that's the only way you're ever gonna convince me that EA thinks it's wrong.  Until then, it's de facto agreement that paysites are fine, since there's a whole list of them on the site, complete with the words Pay Site.


I've seen EA's staements, they are clear as day. You say they have to actually sue someone before you take them seriously. People against paysites are getting involved so it dosen't need to be escalated to that level yet.

Quote from: miros1;844345
PMBD -- well, I've been to the MATY boards to get hack updates enough to know that some of those people are pitiful excuses for human beings.  


Well they've done more for hacks then any paysite i know (even simslice).  Not surprised to see a value judgement on their whole community from you.  

Quote from: miros1;844345
MTS2 -- have you read their new policy?  No reposting paysite content!  


You didn't read it well enough, its no paysite material period. You can't post "get Peggy's hair for this sim here" anymore and advertise for a paysite mesh or item.  That includes TSR.  If its got any paysite content in or part of the upload its banned. No paysite material allowed. Its going to go 100% freesite and I applaud them for it.

Quote

I don't see anyone with a physical or metaphysical gun to your head forcing you to download anything, pay or free!

How does the existence of pay content harm you? What do you feel you need "protection" from? Would you like to assume the hosting cost for your favorite pay sites so they could become free sites?


I, like the freesites, choose to use my freetime as i see fit.  If that's arguing against paysites (or making my own CC) then that's how I choose to use my time.  I'm not getting payed to do it, and I don't think creators need to get paid for their freetime as well. If you love the Sims to it for the game, not the money.

I feel paysites harm the community as they put the Sims in a position where many creator sites are feeding off the community.  You just won't see other game communities doing paid CC and the same dishonorable activities.  I think its's wrong and EA should have acted sooner but it did not.

You can use free-website hosting to show your designs and I've already illustrated how you can host your files and pay for bandwidth by off-site file hosting.  That makes a freesite able to pull off.  I've run plenty of free blogs and websites in the last 10 years to know that its completely possible.  If you choose to ignore what I've recommended that's fine.  I wouldn't expect you to see the light.
33  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 26, 2007, 02:19:30 pm
Again people who are against paysites are not against donating to sites that offer good CC.  As said before it would be great if you could "try before you buy".  You can't do that with a paysite (unless you get content from lots, sims, peer to peer, pmdb).

Basically the ideal utopia would be freesites that get the proper donations and support to keep going.  Where if you want a few items you don't have to run off to paypal first to try them out.  Where freesites can receive funds if fans want to donate them.

SGF it seems you seem ok with paysites, taking and giving money to creators basically.  That is your choice but its rather silly when there's so much great free content available. We all know its time consuming, we all know there are bandwidth costs, but does that justify it especially if lots of people say its wrong (EA Games, MTS2, PMBD) and the quality can often be poor?  I'd rather that great sites be freesites and that people donate to them accordingly.

I'd urge paysites and freesites to start taking advantage of free download hosting (sendspace, mediafire) and grouping their downloads.  Its a great way to allow free bandwidth and yet not pay for the costs.  Hundreds of music blogs use this method for hosting music files (50mb-100mb) and Sim sites doing this would be legal and likely last longer. Taking the bandwidth costs out of the equation would simplify the problem. Then it simply becomes should a creator accept payment for time spent.  I'd say definitely not but if they want to accept donations then other who say they do can repay them if they CHOOSE.
34  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 07:32:42 pm
Well Kathy its been a pleasure.  Have a good weekend.
35  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 07:09:15 pm
Noooooooo

Sad thing is I have two 6 month old twins to help take of when I get home. Work never ends..... Sad

but i do have 4 days off next taking care of the kids... they eventually do sleep.
36  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 07:01:47 pm
Quote from: kathy;837107
Don't make me force you into my basement for a beating Smiley


In the words of Miros:  Don't bait me.:laugh:Cheesy
37  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 06:58:23 pm
Ummm ok miros.


So anyway Kathy I'm stuck at work for the last 12 hrs (yes Saturday's are slow and its been a hellish week) so its been nice to actually be occupied on the internet and make the time pass by.  1 hr to go!!   Almost there.  I guess i owe you for it being a bearable day.
38  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 06:50:52 pm
I'd have to agree with you Kathy.  I know PMBD would disagree on the donation pack for $$ but if its entirely a free site except for that (AND) the donation items are nice and moderately price I'd probably fold and think it was a decent idea to get something for that occasional $5-10.  After all Holy Simoly has done something similar and its hard to argue that its a ripoff.  

So Kathy you like to argue simply for amusement now? :smt116  LOL Shame on you!! :iconbigg:

By the way your avatar is hot, might as well tell you.:worship:
39  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 06:26:14 pm
I do agree that any big site can't be expected to last unless they use advertising or get occasional donations from users.  Even freesites with high volume can run up serious bills.  If MTS2's downloads issues can be solved by asking for more financial help then I think they should make their situation more evident and should get the communal support that we all preach.  

But donation packs which require payment and pay cc is the deal breaker for me.  If Peggy went free and paid for her site off advertising or donations she'd be alright by me. "Free days" would be a step in the right decision but would ultimately be something that would rarely be implemented except for paysites on the fence on the issue.
40  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 06:09:18 pm
Quote from: PegasusDiana;837023
I don't think Kathy is angry at you, at least I don't get that impression. I just think she's getting tired of the whole argument on both sides. Both sides have done some very ugly things to each other. Which isn't going to solve anything. EA has said to several people they are gathering evidence, so we have to sit back and just let them do what it is they need to do. We also will have to respect their decision no matter which way it goes. People have made it into a my side must win thing like it's a game/competition. Everyone wants thier side to be right. When as Beos has stated over and over...the problem we are not seeing and he's not just saying it against free sites. His comments have been directed at both sides, is that we could all end up loosing in the long run...they could very well just say it's gone too far with the Sims 2 and package the Sims 3 in a way we can't add CC. That would stop both sides in their tracks.


Ok thanks.Cheesy  I understand that argument that it may well affect Sims3.  I personally would like the community to work it out internally before EA gets involved but as you say they will make the inevitable decision if they decide to take action and will make key decisions on CC as they develop and release Sims 3.
41  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 06:03:49 pm
I agree with you Kathy in that people should make the final choice.  If someone has seen all the discussion, heard all the arguments, and still wants to buy CC then let them.  Its a foolish decision (especially if the same files are free on PMBD) but until the paysites themselves are a thing of the past then its going to still happen.  It is harder for kids of course but you are right that its a prime example in that wanting and needing are two entirely different things.

I too am tired but thanks for talking about it Kathy :argue: Its much better then posting in a thread and never expecting to read it again or care about the responses.
42  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 05:40:49 pm
Quote from: miros1;836994
I beg to differ.  

I ran a founding site, The Wooden Simolean, on SimsHost for 5 years.  Although my participation level varied from time to time, I was active on a variety of boards (not including this one, silly me) and egroups for all of that time.

Greg Bennett ran all of SimsHost.  Check the profile for "Chairman Greg,"  he's been here and active for quite some time.

Other than that, why should a paysite owner bother coming to a board to get themselves ripped a new one?  Or they're incognito because they've learned the truth of "Don't teach pigs to sing.  It's a waste of your time and annoys the pig."


Alright that's two examples. I don't see any posts by you in this thread so again if you want to discuss paysites plz pull up a chair and speak. I'm curious as how it is from the other side. I can understand how before EA made a decision it was a different existence but I think things have changed where its hard to say "I didn't know it was wrong".
43  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 05:29:58 pm
Well certainly.  I'm not trying to tick you off Kathy.

The two options as you say (pay or don't pay) is correct.  What I'm arguing is you can change the balance and I think it is having an effect.  I'm not expecting TSR to shut down anytime soon but i think the smaller paysites are feeling the pinch in the wallet.  Either they are doing this for the love of the game or they are doing it for the money. If its for the money they'll probably be rethinking that decision soon as it's drying up.  

I don't see any reason for not being able to voice warning on paying for content as many people (lots of them kids) still don't know, the discussions are often stymied. It probably would make sense the voice it more on TSR then here but that won't happen.

Again you brought up that its a Teen game as it is.  Should paysites be taking teenagers money (or their parents for that matter) if its not supposed to be legal?  Is that fair to the kids?  

I do think the adult content is kept away from the kids in an adequite fashion and I certainly don't see a tons of the modders are from that same age group.  Of course their interests will vary as the Sims can adapt to fit anyone's interest and that's why it has been so successful.

Again I don't think a healthy discussion on the subject is a bad thing.  It's certainly more interesting read then a 7 page thread on "What was your 1st EVER sim called? ".  :angel:
44  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 04:41:42 pm
Well the key point is that any lawsuit would have to be for a reason.  There is no money in suing Simpe or Inteen. How has the Sims been damaged by these mods?  

Likewise if a site like Peggy or TSR which has a steady and regular income from being a paysite then EA would have a motive and a reason (to retrieve all those profits off THEIR game) to go after them.  Plus they would only have to do it once to a big leaguer and other paysites would either go freesite or run for the hills. Also its the most likely in that they would send legal warning letters first before they started actually pursuing it in court.

These issues will continue into Sims 3 so I don't see why we shouldn't be discussing them and fixing the problem before it continues into the next game (where EA is likely to be more proactive and restrictive the next time if its still an issue).

There is no reason why the discussion level has to be at a hysterical pitch though.  I really don't see paysite owners arguing for their existance in here on a freesite so I think the other "party" isn't even at the discussion table.  They simply rarely take part in our community.

By all means if anyone dosen't like the discussion or the "drama" then you or anyone don't have to take part in it.  I don't have a clue why people would take part in a thread that they aren't interested in or one where they've yet to formulate an actual opinion in one way or the other.
45  Simmers' Paradise / General Sims 2 Discussion / Paysite Discussion Thread on: July 21, 2007, 03:47:36 pm
I just don't understand your argument. The EULA statement is still mostly and always insistant in many places that content should not be for commercial use.

Quote
Electronic Arts Inc, and its subsidiaries, affiliates and licensors (collectively, "EA") grants you a non- transferable non-exclusive license to download and/or install and use one copy of the software tool ("Tool") and/or materials ("Materials") (collectively the "Tools & Materials") solely for your personal noncommercial use in connection with EA's products, in accordance with the terms below.

EA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials. You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials. Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not use the Tools & Materials to promote another product or business, or on any site that operates or promotes a server emulator.


Again as InTeen, Insim, Simpe, etc are not being used commercially. I don't see how the EULA applies to them in away that they have anything to fear.  I also think these programs clearly have many more benefits than any of the "grey" side mods that you are discussing. The only ones who make a big deal about these programs are often sites like TSR who ban links to Insim (and MTS for some bizarre reasons) because of the kiddies (and because they want to discourage people leaving the TSR to get completely free CC and real assitance with questions).  

Again, the point is moot if EA does nothing and if they do anything it will be against a paysite.
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