Murda/Urban Gangstas - 10/23/2007 - Update - The Road Splits In The Courtroom

[LissaS]

Yea I meant to add that in that Raven has no idea that william was trouble although she thought he was kool. He was doing all this stuff behind her back and it got him killed, and Raven in trouble. Kareem is on the loose and he does not care want anybody thinks or feels all he wants is revenge so now he's livin la vida loca BIG time. That boi will do ANYTHING.

[Tenshii~Akari]

About that wild child... Someone needs to get him back on track before he gets himself to far out of orbit.. though I think he's already pushed off beyond that.  Kareem is scaring me now, too.  :sad7:

One thing I can say about Jamal... he's definitely like the rest of his family.  He has that same thirst for control that Raheem, Junior, and even Che.  When he shot the other guy, I guess you could say that was definitely his moment of weakness.  His spontaneous anger is definitely something he has yet to yield the reins on.  :?

[vita4all]

Readers: Got some provocative questions for you.

Isn't it interesting how people (particularly the characters) start off innocently, but too much abuse from others and/or the system transforms them? Or as Tenshii noted about Kareem, flies "out of orbit"? The victim becomes the aggressor, and the values and/or violence trickles down into the next generation.

Tenshii, I love your 'out of orbit' phrase. Kareem is spinning, for sure. Readers: Is society spinning out of control in so many communities now because too many of the respected businesses care more about profits than the people under them, to a degree that causes the kind of backlash that Kareem has dished out?

Moon, reread those two or three paragraphs on the R-E-S-P-E-C-T issue about Raven and Jamal's girlfriend's mother (by the photo of Raven standing by the picture of the house on the wall). There's an important point there, and I take a very different view of William (the guy Jamal killed). If Raven had been more flexible in allowing him to have company, would the murder have happened? Also, would you pay cash money to rent a room, only to be told you aren't allowed guests in it? Did Raven really want her house respected, or knowing her history, was she already bitter about relationships and didn't want to be reminded of what she didn't have (before she met Ronnie)?  Also Moon, thanks: I'm glad you mentioned that you liked the part about blood diamonds and my throwing this in the story. The misery I learned about what's going on over there is out of orbit too, on a massive level. It's a shame, 'cause like you, I love diamonds. They're sooo pretty!

Veckah, Sharp insights, and I like what you said about Junior's "pure maleness" and fanaticism... but just to get a dialogue going with readers:

How different really, is Junior's point of view about strong men leading and smart women following? I know his wedding vows and the way he interprets the Bible blew your mind. Blew mine too, and I wrote it!!! Heh-heh! All I did was take the common marriage vows of 'I promise to love, honor, and obey' to the next level - in a rawer form. As I wrote it, I thought that it's no longer PC (politically correct) to say it or openly acknowledge submission and obediance of a woman to a man in many circles, but don't a lot men and women still think it? To be more specific, the whole knight in shining armour thing, but with the guy making big bucks and his ride is a nice car, and he's smart and his woman looks up to him. Notice I used the word 'up', not at.

I'm old enough to remember when this was a commonly held and stated value (along with whipping your kids 'spare the rod, spoil the child', all endorsed in the Good Book), and when many couples switched to substituting the word 'obey' to 'cherish' in their vows. It wasn't all that long ago, either.  

And readers, is the idea/value that strong men lead a cause of problems in relationships? Or the cure? Or neither? Both? I'll bet there's more than a few readers who feel Junior is doing the right thing in many ways, despite his extremism in other ways. I'd like to hear from you, too, although I won't hold my breath. :smile:

[LissaS]

Ya Know when somebody gets murdered somebody's gettin payed so it is all about the benjis. And yea Raven could have been bitter I didn't really notice or catch onto it before, and yes everybody starts off innocent until the darkness of this world rapes them of their innocences. As for blood diamonds.................... *sigh* "I want gold" as Rita would put it. I see where your geting at or where your trying to take our minds, I see what your saying about strong men leading and this that and tha third, but you gotta remember that nobody's perfect and I know your not saying that anybody's perfect. So whether men lead or not to me it's clear that we need the man upstairs to guide us since we can't seem to get it right ourselves no matter how hard we try our way never really seems to work. He put us here, He's the author and finisher He's knows all and sees all. So it's not about being smart cause you can be smart and be a fool at the same time, it's about being wise and  making wise decisionsw, where else can you get wisdom from.

[vita4all]

From Moon22T: ...whether men lead or not to me it's clear that we need the man upstairs to guide us since we can't seem to get it right ourselves no matter how hard we try our way never really seems to work.

Moon, I love what you said, all of it. Junior thinks that love is his Achilles' heel and his only weakness. As readers, we have the distance to see him clearly and we know better. Despite being a genius, as you said, he lacks wisdom, and as Veckah said, he's a religious fanatic "who believes that the ends justifies the means", to whatever he thinks is right.

His religious fanatacism is what makes him so terrifying to so many of my readers, as we all know this often leads to war, destruction and death... and by now we know where he's headed: the Middle East, somewhere in Sergios home country, and he has well-developed plans for what he'll do when he gets there. (I ain't telling, but it's gonna be good! :-P)

On the other hand, there are those who are think his values about male-female relationships are grounded in Biblical teachings, and therefore solid and reasonable, along with the brothas in this story's 'hood who aren't the least bit religious but still try to rule women.

The story mirrors the way many people really think, feel and act - all imperfect, struggling, damaged from childhood or dating issues, and sometimes, depite being smart, are just plain stupid... or human, because as you said so well:

From Moon22T: Everybody starts off innocent until the darkness of this world rapes them of their innocence.

[Ali Xavier]

Watching Junior grow up was amazing cuz I never thought he'd become manly. He even looks cool now. He was so religious until his hormones hit. I like his girl Rita. At first I was surprised he got married cuz he's so young, but it makes sense for a guy who won't have sex or whack off. I'm glad you didn't make his first time having sex perfect, because it never is. Also, their love and passion is beautiful and I hope he won't ruin it.

I read your questions. I don't have a problem with her following his lead, unless he leads her to Hell. The photo of him as a soldier and saying he has his own fires to start makes me wonder if there's Hell ahead - the one he wants to wants to avoid.

Kareem was amazing in this chapter. A lil' firebug. The picture of him setting the fires and laughing in one was funny in a twisted way. Can't wait to see what Junior's plan is for him. Kareem and Ronnie are the most interesting characters for me, although they're all good.

Last, I liked the way you filled out Jamal and humanized him.  Earlier he came across as just a thug who blew away his ex-girl's new boyfriend. He's still a thug, but one with a reason a lot of guys would understand. Too bad he had a gun (and the bad luck of Raheem for a father). If he hadn't, it would've been a fist fight or knife fight and the end of it. Although there are a lot of reasons this guy was killed by him, the main reason as I see it, was Jamal's easy access to guns combined with his age and bad temper. Junior said he's going to save Jamal. He'll be either his brother's fool or his brother's keeper. Can't wait to see which!

[Veckah]

And readers, is the idea/value that strong men lead a cause of problems in relationships? Or the cure? Or neither? Both?

I agree that in most relationships (marriage or otherwise) there is a stronger leading the not so strong, however, I don't think it has to be the male that takes the 'leader' role. In an honest and healthy relationship the one who leads should be the one that is stronger in the problem at hand.

True equality is a pipe dream, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, if we didn't it would make life REALLY boring. What we need to find is the ability to admit when we should lead and when we should follow per situation.

I'm old enough to remember when this was a commonly held and stated value (along with whipping your kids 'spare the rod, spoil the child', all endorsed in the Good Book), and when many couples switched to substituting the word 'obey' to 'cherish' in their vows. It wasn't all that long ago, either.

As am I, and I am not ashamed to admit that this type of belief structure is why I am not a member of the Christian faith, I won't go into it here, this isn't the forum for it. I just feel it is time for people to stand up and take control of their own lives, their own actions without using religion, race, handicap, or one of the hundreds of other excuses as a shield.

Wow.. ah, that rambled and got totally away from the story itself didn't it.

Time to sit back and wait for the :blob6:FLAMING:blob6:

(I really hope I didn't just start a flame war.)

[Tenshii~Akari]

No flames from me.  I actually agree with some of what you're saying, Veckah.  The vast majority of people today will use anything to claim that it wasn't entirely their doing.  :angel:

Some people I know personally would flame me for what I'm about to say, as I'm a Christian myself.  Most of what many people in my faith go by is mainly from the Old Testament.  (Basically just about everything that Junior stands on in his belief.)  While I may go by most of it (Mainly the Ten Comandments... I have maybe 6-7 down pat...)  Even though the Bible states that women should submit to their husbands, I basically second everything that Veckah said in the first part of her post about leadership.  I know a lot of natural born female leaders whose husbands support them every step of the way.  Inversely, I also know a lot of women who've led their men astray because of bad decisions.  Same with men leading women.  One could have the best intentions in the world, but still stay down the wrong path, and not only bring themselves down, but the man or women that trusted their leadership and love (or sometimes it can strengthen the bond between them).  It definitely goes both ways.

And like I said before, no flames from me.  Sometimes, I still have a difficult time understanding how my Christian family takes things from the Bible and twists them to justify themselves for whatever situation/belief.  People have definitely taken advantage of twisting words in their favor, that's for sure.  (Heh, I most definitely see this in Raheem and his boys!  The similarities are very real with even some people I've met in the past... :shock:)  

You know, I hate to admit this, but this is the deepest thinking I've ever done.  Not even church and school made me dig this deep into my head!  I usually suck at critical thinking questions on tests, so this is a miracle having these thoughts and opinions rolling out like a rockslide!  :laugh:

[LissaS]

TenshiiAkari I couldn't agree more, that's where the problem starts when people start taking biblical teachings and twisting them up to justify the situation. And the bible warns you about that when it says: Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but really their vicious wolves. Lol not flames over here, oh and Vita I can't WAIT to see what happens next. OOoooooooo this gettin soooo guuud!!!

[vita4all]

These comments blow mind mind. I love intelligent conversation where people share and exchange a variety of views without losing their cool. How else are we to learn anything? Love it so much, that every character represents an entirely different view, value system or lifestyle from the others. Of course, there's overlap, just like in real life and this thread.

Otherwise, I'm still farting around with the photos and fine-tuning the next. Be ready between midnight and dawn. Bring yo' box of tissues...

[vita4all]

Regarding the comments on this page: My response above didn't go into any depth in addressing what some of you said as I need time to process it. I haven't done that in-depth yet, as my mind has been chewing, if not obsessing, on fine-tuning Part 1 of this upcoming chapter.

A word of thanks to Ali. I particularly liked your point on easy access to guns as an issue, but it was all good.

And a word of praise to Moon, Veckah, Tenshi, that your fearless, insightful, and diplomatic viewpoints about religion and how it's affected you. This fueled and nurtured my creativity, and I believe, helped me add more depth to Freedom Ain't Free, Part 1, that I'm ready to post.

Pat yourselves on the back and enjoy it. :thumbup:

Otherwise, I don't think many folks make it beyond page 1 since the whole story is on Post 1. It's these back pages where a tiny handful of folks chill (the coffee house crowd?), thus flame wars simply haven't occurred, which was a concern. Great! May the meaningful but respectful dialog continue!

I'm a day late and dollar short in getting this update uploaded, but here it is!
May your minds enjoy the feast!

Chapter 73: Freedom Ain't Free - Part 1 - Rita

::smilieiforgetwhi::Find this update on Page 1, Post 1, never at the end of this thread.::smilieiforgetwhi::[/SIZE][/FONT]

I've decided to keep track when I update:
6546 hits since 6/10; 7037 hits as of right now.

[Tenshii~Akari]

:smt103  Whooo~!!  That one gave me chills!!  

At first I was thinking, "Either Junior is deaf, or those are some solidly sound-proofed doors!"  when Rita was "confronting" her parents... though it was more like a prison check than a confrontation at first.  Then as soon as I read into the chapter more... I realized he really did hear her.  In a way, I'm glad he did leave when he did, 'cause he scares holy hell outta me more than ever.  :shock:

And after getting to know Rita a bit more, I can tell I'm going to have a horrendous time relating to her.  I couldn't take reading how her parents treated her on her arrival back home.  She's a lot more tolerant to what happened than I would've been.  A LOT.  It takes a lot for me not to strike back at someone for hitting me, and I have a tendency to want to defend everything and anything I care for.  That includes my personality and the will to want to stand for myself and not someone else for me.  Truly, I wouldn't be able to live with her parents or Junior for one hour!  :laugh:

[vita4all]

HeyTenshii! Thanks for the comment.

Junior and Rita have been making out for months. Both are religious, their hormones are through the ceiling, and Junior doesn't masturbate... they're in heat!

He's naturally intense and we can assume he grew up watching and listening to his father relate to women and people in general, and we know how Raheem is.  

Rita's used to being raised by strict, religious, over-protective middle-class parents. Junior and Rita are like two pieces of a puzzle who found each other, and they fit.

God help them...

[LissaS]

WOW............. Rita caught it good when she got home, man. The only thing I don't agree with as far as junior is whipping her. You whip kids not your wife. And yea you may lead but your wife is your helper, not your child. It's nothing wrong with wanting to protect her but that's definatly not the way to do it. And Rita's so in love that she's to blind to see, even when she finds out he's serious she's so mesmerized by his words that she still doesn't hear him clearly. Plus I think she knows he's wrong but like she said it sounds like he's making sense. She confused and sprung. Junior has good intentions but he's going about it the wrong way simply because he learned it from his dad, who he quotes alot. Junior is molding her the way he wants her, I don't know what type of love they got going on but it sure ain't true love that's for sure

[Elven_Song]

I'm a bit late but....
I would have never imagined Junior getting married like that, and so soon. I think some parts were cute though, and overall they were brilliant chapters. The contrast of the two families and lives being brought together was a great idea. And it was kind of nice to be able to have a chapter I could really relate to! ^^ I'm sure if I got married underage to a gangsta like Junior, I'd have to deal with something very similar.

I totally agree with most of you. In most cases, in fact, I have experienced such things. Especially the 'spare the rod, spoil the child' part. -laugh- It frustrates me to see how Junior is mixing his father's way with his other Father's way (the bigger one xD), and then twisting it again for someone else. It's sad how Rita's just getting so caught up in things and in the end she could end up getting seriously hurt (well, more than she already is). Unfortunately she probably won't realise because like you said, Moon22T, its making sense to her, and that's only because Junior's mixing God's word with his, and she's been raised to follow it.
I can't wait for the next chapter to find out more about how things turn out, with Ronnie's trial especially, and Kareem on the loose.