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Author Topic: What makes Sims reject hugs?  (Read 4219 times)
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melscape
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« on: June 03, 2007, 12:04:27 am »

This is driving me nuts. I'm trying to make a music video and no matter what I seem to do, my Sims are always willing to hug each other. I've boolproped them down to completely negative as negative can be relationship points, I've dropped all their needs towards red to put them in a bad mood, and still the second a Sim hugs them they're up for it. I've even made the to be recieving hug Sim really mean and really shy, figuring they'd be less huggy people and it doesn't work.

Could it be because they all live on the same lot? I've often come across visitors who don't like to be hugged by your super outgoing sims. But why in the world are they always in the mood for hugs?

Some kind of glitch?
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carlena
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 12:14:26 am »

I have no clue. I moved this average (5 ots) outgoing guy in with this girl who had 8 outgoing points and her rejected her hug. A few minutes later they had their first kiss together though lol. They were teen sims. I guess your sims don't want to be in the video hehe...
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BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 12:45:12 am »

the reasoning of sims to accept or reject hugs, flirts, etc are varied; to some degree, each EP seems to add to the complexity.

Certainly, we have the ambition and the ability to play God with our Sims, but Electronic Arts didn't try to craft a game that was made to mimic every level of detail of human society, psychology, and sexuality.

Consider the gender bias of the sims.

The gender of a Sim is specified by four possible numeric integers:

neuter: 0
female : 1
male : 2
unisex: 3

in the character's information this is given:

gender (dtUInteger) = 0x00000000 <-- has no impact on sexual preference
gender (dtUInteger) = 0x00000001
gender (dtUInteger) = 0x00000002
gender (dtUInteger) = 0x00000003 <-- has no impact on sexual preference

Also within the character file are the well known gender "preference" or "attraction" values ranging from -100 to +100.

As designed, these attraction values were meant to nullify one another in a direct and inversely proportional manner; so for every point gained for one communicated immediately to a point lost for the other.

SimPE and other game mods make it possible to set the values manually to anything you desire, but the game doesn't quite know what to do with this, since it was designed to always favour one over the other unless the values rest at zero.

As designed, if a Sim is +100 for males, the game anticipates -100 for females; even if SimPE gives us the power to set both male and female to +100, it doesn't in any way mean that the game will understand what this means and will set about doing what it was designed to do: start removing points from one to restore the balance it was designed to expect.

After the addition of Nightlife and later Expansion Packs, the addition of other factors like hair colour, perfume, stink, fatness, fitness, etc., can add a temporary bonus to the attraction, but these things have no especial impact on the values stored permanently in the character file. It seems that only woohoo -- and to a somewhat lesser degree flirting -- has any impact here, and then only when it is done with a succession of new sims.

The totally "gay" Sim, the totally "straight" Sim, and the "bisexual" Sim are all constructs that we demand for our own emotional satisfaction, but have no real impact on the Sims themselves. All they care about are what the numeric values stored in their character files communicate to them.

Also, we have to consider the impact of astrological signs. I know that these have been claimed meaningless by JMPescado and others, and certainly they can easily be out-manoeuvred by player interaction; but their impact on the relationship scores between Sims in game, albeit subtle, is appreciable and direct. In my experience, the best mixed sign pairings in order of success are:

1. Gemini-Pisces
2. Scorpio-Pisces
3. Scorpio-Gemini (but only because this is the only other possible arrangement due to the superabundance of Scorpios and Geminis in my game)

Same sign pairs generally don't work so well, but a Pisces-Pisces pairing isn't unmanageable.

Liegenschonheit has posted a graphic chart of all of the combinations here: Sims Romantic Compatability Chart

Other pairs have some reasonable similarity in being beneficial to the rate at which relationship points are gained; and since the point at which Sims may develop crushes, fall in love, and engage in woohoo is determined by the relationship scores, it plays a significant role in determining sexual preference. All of this really hinges on how much you are interfering in the way the Sims act. If you command the Sims to do things more often than you allow them to autonomously initiate things, you can end up with whatever you determine, but if you allow Sims to follow their own interests it often goes in directions you never would have expected.

Completely without any mods, I have had, at various times, Sims spontaneously woohoo when I had been made to understand they just don't do this on their own. At other times I have had a Sim develop a crush or fall in love with another Sim, when the other felt only friendship for the one in love. In one instance, it was a most curious affair since the Sim that fell in love had a preference -17 for males, and the Sim he fell in love with was male. But it was a Gemini-Pisces pairing. Go figure.

I have been looking at the fitness preference contained in the sims' character files for the past 2 years and I really don't know if it has ever played a significant or measurable role in the game. Like the Romance score, it has been there, but I never saw where that really did much; when the Romance score was recycled for use as "light" in plant sims in Seasons EP, it clearly demonstrated it had done nothing all this time.

I have never understood if the fitness preference worked "inter-personally" or if it was a "self-state" thing. In the former case causing benefits in relationships because the sim was physically fit, or in the latter that it meant a Sim would autonomously seek out an exercise object. *shrug*

If the fitness preference plays a role in inter-personal attraction, then it certainly adds to the complexity of the way an individual sim reacts to the intereactions initiated by other sims.

After Nightlife EP, the astrological signs certainly play a much more significant role, I don't know if EA changed the multiplier or if they fixed a broken code, but it went from being totally unmeasureable on the end user level to playing a much more significant role. Although I did see it evidence some strong impact on University lots prior to NL, but even then it was unpredictable.

I understand that my observation of the game in all this time is not authorative, and many of the things I have seen don't always seem to correlate to the values easily read by SimPE in its various itterations, so even at this late date, I have many unanswerred questions about the way Sims relate to one another. I have only seen revulsion since the release of NL; but even then only rarely. According to EA (or at least their offical mouth organ Prima), the astrological signs should have caused something like this all along.

Also, it should be noted that resident Sims and sims not directly under your control are being controlled by the game's AI (artificial intelligence) - and that is a highly un-predicable thing.

Even the possition on the lot and the general environment may play a role.  Certainly it does in real life, so it isn't inconceivable that EA did some small work to duplicate this.

Aspirations also play a larger role than were previously thought.  I have seen several posts where people explained their difficulties of having certain combinations work.  It is really far more complex than many people previously believed.  The EPs make it all very difficult to understand every layer of the equation.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 02:13:37 pm by ~Marvine~ » Logged

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megativity13
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 10:11:33 am »

if you're comfortable altering your game files, this might be of some help
http://jd-movies.com/allmenus.php

there's tons of helpful stuff on that site as well- poke around.
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KacoshiAjewl
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 10:28:52 am »

O.O beosboxboy  your replie is like reading a collage report XD It's very informational I dident know there was so much to the relationships in this game.
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melscape
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 11:15:01 am »

I did wonder if I had possibly dropped their relationship points too low. Like that once it was in the negatives then the game would be happy for them to accept almost any interaction that would help bring it back up, as if thinking of hug like apologize or something.

Does all that attraction etc. play into adult/child relationships? One of my hug rejecting Sims is supposed to be a child rejecting the (friendly) hug of adult unrelated sim of her household? And I also wanted it for a mother/teen,  interaction as well. Though I thought it possible I would just have to create a 'stranger' mom double to use.  I don't know if children have any of the romance/relationship preferences, and I didn't think they'd be exactly active within the family, but I really know very little about any of the deep mysteries of Sim coding :lol: The most I've ever done is turn on the simDNA.

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. If I get debug social on, will I be able to choose to make them decline hugs?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 11:17:35 am by melscape » Logged
BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2007, 02:04:41 pm »

As regards child-adult interactions: The game has some built-in inhibitions, there is an uncertain and unevenly applied enforcement of "don't talk to strangers" sort of thing in the game.

There are lots of things child Sims aren't allowed to do if the family relationship isn't present.  I avoid children in my game as much as possible since the way the game makes them hyper drives me nuts, so my experience and experimentation has been of very limited scope.

We must consider the people at EA that made this game.  Certainly they didn't want to make a game that would land them in a hot bed of legal entanglements, so it follows that they would have placed clear restrictions on the manner in which todlers, children, and teens interact with non-family adults and elders.  This -- aside from the legal dimension -- is just common sense and common decency.

SO in my very non-authorative view, the presence or absence of the family relationship is the governing factor for most interactions by and involving toddlers & children.  This rule may be relaxed somewhat when the interactions of the child are with other non-family children; but to what degree I can only guess.

To the best of my knowledge, the gender and gender bias of Sims doesn't register any effect until the teen life-stage; so it follows that other atractors like hair colour, star-sign, and aspiration may also play no role for toddlers and children.  It is dificult to make any kind of statement here that isn't grossly speculative, since I really do avoid the little hyper-monkeys.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 02:10:18 pm by ~Marvine~ » Logged

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melscape
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2007, 02:46:33 pm »

I've come to the conclusion that the game feels you know someone well enough to hate them, you know them well enough to hug them. However a relationship score of something like 4/5 or something makes your Sim feel they don't know someone well enough to hug them. That or it just made enemy Sims particularly open to mild interactions that would lead them to "making up".  My dumb Sim kids will happily accept hugs from both their enemies or friends that are non-family adults :lol: But not from Sims they barely know.

Anyway, I knew there was a lot a Sim wouldn't do with a nonfamily adult, thankfully I body-shopped all my characters so I can create them again and again, related or unrelated to get all the interactions I need.
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Ellen Prochaska
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2007, 05:20:38 pm »

Beosboy, this may be alittle off the subject.  But from what I gather you have to alter a sim's gender preference in simpe??  I have been making alot of single sims in my game and their preference is zero/zero??  And it is rare, at least in my game for a sim to be attracted to someone of the same sex.  So to have gay sims in my game I have to create them in cas as a spouse of someone of the same sex.  So I guess what my question is, how do I change that?? Also from what I read up there, it is not possible for a sim to be bisexual??
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BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2007, 11:49:40 pm »

Ellen - to the best of my understanding the only time a Sim is "bisexual" is when both male and female gender bias rest at 0.  But really, any sim will do just about anything you make them do; EA did give us almost god-like power of the little people. But again, let me stress, the ideas "gay", "straight", and "bisexual" really have no appropriate use in discussing The Sims 2.  These are ideas that we project onto the game for our own emotional satisfaction, and have no relevance to the game.  One may as well wonder if Sims have souls or if God hears their prayers.

With that warning in mind, I will proceed using these terms for the sake of convenience.  

The game is designed in a very binary manner. Everything is yes or no.  Let us assume we have a male sim and think like the game a moment. Is male preference higher than female: yes - to our minds: gay, no - to our minds: straight.  If both are equal, then the answer is indeterminate, but not "bisexual".  Sims will become gender biased based on how you choose to "play god" with their lives, most sims that I allowed to follow their own development in this matter never had much above a -15 to +15 point range; so this is arguably a condition of sexual ambiguity that may be "bisexual", but hardly worth the semantic arguments to prove one way or the other.

Sims are not little humans, any more than a bowl of plastic fruit is a bowl of fruit.  So most of this thinking is misplaced at the best.

Further discussion on this matter would have to be on the adult forum.
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"There is a certain elegance in wasting time. Any fool can waste money, but when you waste time you waste what is priceless."
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Sleepycat
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 08:15:10 am »

most people turn off "free will" on the Lot when making a video, that way their sims only do what they are told.
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melscape
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 10:17:30 am »

My free will is/was off. Still, getting Sims to reject each other is under the control of a reacting Sim who remains under the AI's control.
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Sam the T-man
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 10:57:34 am »

@Yakov: To extend on your talk of chemistry and all that it includes, personal experience tells me that turn ons and star signs do play a significant role. I've pushed a couple from two bolts to three just by getting them both fit. I've also had a three bolt couple who were both Pisces, but the highest scoring in my books (using Liegen's chart as a guide) are:

Capricorn-Aquarius - things like turn ons and aspirations seem to have little power here; this is by far the best combo in my experience
Aries-Taurus - not quite as strong as above, but still a great match

I don't know how much is due to the amount of hacks in my game, but I can always tell when trying to hug a strange sim is bad news. If the other accepts that sim is very lucky - it's not so much down to niceness as I first thought because my meaner sims are doing it too, and among roomies they're always accepted. I think a lot of what makes a sim accept or reject a hug is down to a combination of personality and mood - the worse mood they're in, the less likely they are to accept.

About the gender preference, I know it's all down to the code and whatever, but Maxis (at the time) designed it in the first place so we could have the emotional outlet that you speak of. What gets me, as I'm sure it would you too since we're both bi, is why they had the preference code behaving the way it does. Bisexuals need that outlet too, and it sucks that those people not in the know about adjusting it manually, whether through SimPE or Insim, are stuck with their sims being either gay or straight. It's the principle more than anything else.

@Anyone: To clarify, 0/0 doesn't mean bisexual, it means asexual (having no preference). They need a numerical score on one or both (above zero) to start getting attracted to anyone.
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BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 11:19:17 am »

Melscape is right, Sleepycat, even with freewill disabled the non-controlled sim is at least marginally under the control of the game's AI.  The AI is a bit unpredictable.

The AI seems to not be completely reliable and varies greatly depending on which EPs are installed.  It is true we can turn off the free will of Sims, but I have experienced multiple instances where this did not prove a grant-safe that I would get what I expected from any commanded interaction; if anything, it actually seemed to hinder my efforts.

The rage and hate of a Sim is difficult to comprehend from a human standpoint; maybe because it is so logical - or at least logical within the code of the game.  The underlying code of the game is biased to make Sims accept and do things that will move the Short-Term Relationship score out of the negative range (to our minds: forgive transgresses) more readily that anything we might see in the 0 to +40 range.  This may be loosely linked (if at all) to the Nice personality score.

Sim rage (a dubious feature of Nightlife EP and later) is weird and wildly unpredictable; it seems to last longer than human rage and seems to parallel no emotion I have ever personally experienced. A Sim in a state of rage will do things autonomously that are of an anti-social nature, the scope and degree of anti-social behaviour seems to be only loosely linked (if at all) to the Nice personality score.

When we consider the "big picture" of attractions, preferences, star-sign biases, moods, needs, and imposed moral and social ethos of the game's code that are not necessarily categorised as free will by EA, then we see clearly the great unknown.  How a sim will react at any given moment may well have a randomising factor in the equation, a sort of common cheat in designing any game AI, and it may very well be this random effect that lies at the root of the vexation of so many simmers.

Sadie, you raise a good point, mood does play a role.  But do Sims have a mood beyond the meters we are given? And do Sims get tired of dealing with the same individual?  It may very well be that Sims crave a change as much as we do.  The way the wants roll up and change - I would love for a mod-master to explain to me exactly what determines the visible and invisible wants and fears.  The fact that a Sim can have a hidden fear or want makes the game rather tedious at times.

On the topic of sexuality, I will point to the target market as evidenced by both the marketing and the game content: females 13-17 -- not adults 18+.  I don't think EA meant for us to have an outlet, only to provide a game that was entertaining and would make them a profit.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 11:48:02 am by ~Marvine~ » Logged

"There is a certain elegance in wasting time. Any fool can waste money, but when you waste time you waste what is priceless."
-- Maugham, W. Somerset. Ashenden: Or the British Agent.
Sleepycat
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 06:18:51 pm »

Quote from: melscape;758039
One of my hug rejecting Sims is supposed to be a child rejecting the (friendly) hug of adult unrelated sim of her household? And I also wanted it for a mother/teen,  interaction as well. Though I thought it possible I would just have to create a 'stranger' mom double to use.



ahhh... missed this part this morning (when I wasn't really awake) and I didn't realize you were trying to have a hug rejected for your video. Your first post didn't make that clear and I only skimmed the other posts since most peoples problems (with sims doing what they aren't suppose to) when making videos is from having free will on.


and yes, I know that sims are atleast partly under the control of the game's AI when free will is off (or on for that matter).
I've always wished for a way to make a sim say no to a kiss or hug or a proposal (even when the relationship is high enough romance sims should Never say Yes!) or marriage (sorry just can't go through with it after all!) and/or other stuff.
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