Sims 2 and Discrimination... these two don't mix.

[Tenshii~Akari]

To the moderators and administration:  If this topic is something that is not of appropriate nature here, I'll gladly end it before it gets out of hand, and ask someone to delete or lock it, whichever is better... but this is something that seriously needs to get out, because it's happening a lot to this very day... not particularly on this site, but around the community as a whole.  And it bothers me that it's being kept under wraps for so long...  :?

To the Sims 2 Community members everywhere:  please don't take this subject out of hand.  This is a topic meant to be debate free as the site rules state, and just a fair notice to everyone out there who may or may not have experienced this one way or another.  Help a fellow simmer out, and keep an open mind... it helps to prevent personal bashing and such.  :group hu:

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Imagine yourself, just an average guy or gal, doing your favorite thing in computer recreation:  Playing The Sims 2.  You love everything about it... being able to create your own little cyber-people, dressing them up in all the latest styles you've found around the web, and living through/destroying their little lives.  It's fantastic, isn't it?  So fantastic, in fact, that you want to share what happens in your game with everyone else around the community.

So eventually, you'll find out the whole procedure in taking game pictures and how to share them.  Even moreso, you may learn a few tricks from those who've been taking shots for years and learn how to spice up your images with a few photo-shopping tips, or even learning how to pose sims in a way that people would believe that they were actual in-game interactions.  Not only that, but you finally figure out how to retexture meshes with your own clothes, and photo-skinning has become a breeze.  You've become so proud of your progress that you post your work around the web for all in the world to view.  In the end, you get some feedback, which makes you feel good and want to share more of what you have experienced in your gameplay.  It's a great feeling, right?

Now, imagine someone coming along... a "troll" of some sorts.  Only, this isn't your average troll.  This guy has an absolute hate for what you do in your own game for no apparent reason other than the fact that he hates anything related to your culture and style.  It's sad... he decides to take all his pent-up anger out on you, because you aren't doing what he wants you to do to your own game.  And not only does he tell you off, he personally attacks you just for the heck of it, and calls you out of your name, race, and birthright in the worst way possible.  All this because of what culture you decide to represent in your game the most.  Someone hand this guy a tissue, because he's throwing an absolute fit over something he can't control...

Want to know what's even sadder?  There's people out there doing this at this very moment, as I'm typing all of this up.  People, who in fact may be well-known or unknown, who in the shadows blast certain people for being who they are and for playing a game that seems a bit "one sided" in a certain culture.  Why?  I'll never really understand.  The Sims 2 (and other related titles) was a game based for anyone to play... why is it that certain people believe that only a select group (or groups) can play it?  It seems all the more puzzling... and all the more discriminatory when people troll over the fact.  This isn't the true principal of playing a game, now is it?  Doesn't seem like any fun if it is...

Now, in my experience as a simmer, I haven't had this happen to me personally... or if anything was meant in that way, I probably ended up ignoring it and passing it off.  Maybe because I'm an enigma at times... my sims are probably the most different looking things you'll ever see, as their extremely mixed in culture and race... :shock:  I don't usually say much about myself personally, either, so that's probably another wave of protection on my end.  But I've heard and seen from people who do share a common interest with me in my style get attacked for how they play their game a lot.  In all honesty, I'm a complete mixture of an "urbanite", "sub-urbanite", game fanatic, musician, anime-addict, culturally-interested person... in short terms, I'm one of those "weird" people you may see hanging around in random places, soaking in everything around me and not saying a word while doing so... then eventually re-capturing every moment that sticks out in my mind through my sketches or through my sims contest entries.  Most of the time, I'm showing off the culture around me, what I see happening in my life and while I'm in college, which is a good amount of ethnic and urban styles.  Considering my race, I'm a rare, but occasional, bird with all the different things I take heavy interest in outside of the usual stereotype.  But that doesn't stop me from what I love doing, which is implementing my style and my interests through my game.  

I'm one of the lucky ones, and I'm thankful for that... but seeing a few of my fellow simmers going through a difficult time bothers me a lot.  I often wonder, if people really knew who I was outside from my sims, contest entries, and the small amount of custom content I've shared, would I get the same treatment as some of the other simmers who are going through such a thing?  Or if it was the reverse, and I had nothing to offer, would that stuff happen?  Would people criticize me for choosing a cultural style I want in my game, or having a certain sims style suited for my own taste?  

Should I really care if people say such stuff about me?  Honestly, I wouldn't, because I don't know people on the internet that well... but I don't stand for anything that attacks me as a person, nor anyone else for that matter.  Some of the things said that have caused some good people to leave the community are pretty darn harsh, to say the least.  Is it because of fear of that person's capabilities?  Jealousy of the level of talent or ideas they have?  Inability to comprehend or relate to what they're showcasing?  Possibly.  It's also this type of thing that's bringing down the community in the first place... you've got people sharing their talents with everyone, and certain people come around and constantly ridicule them, or perform an action that sends some type of underlying message.  It happens a lot, even to the good people we all know.  

Some will admit it happening (or doing it), other won't.  But I just don't find that type of stuff worth putting up with.  We're all doing one thing in common here:  We're playing a game we like.  It may not be the same way in everyone's game, but we have a certain love for our sims, and we show it of in a variety of different forms.  If this type of attack or bashing is happening to you, report it to the staff where it's happening, or if there's none available, be bold and show the truth to everyone... I'm sure the attacker will stop then.  It doesn't matter what site you're on... no site should allow such harassment to keep going.  And if it does, then that's probably not the best place to be.  They may be the ones actually against you in the first place... the sad truth, but this happens a lot on the internet.

Anyways, this is something that has been held back in my mind for a while now, and it's been happening to a few good people I know of for quite a while now.  I know a lot of people may not want to read a huge blurb of text, but if you do get through it, what's your take on the matter... and if you've experience such a thing, do you ignore it, or stand up for yourself?  And if you're one who is committing the action of bashing someone, why do you do it?  If someone were to do the same with your work, does it make you feel like the bigger person?  Wouldn't you feel pretty bad about it if the same was done to you, or would you just keep on your merry way and troll everyone's work you dislike?  

Once again, I'm not intending to start a debate here... I just want to get a better understanding from both sides as to what's going on and why.  The only way we'll get better as a community is if we come on common ground and relate on something rather than going at each others' throats over something we can't control.  :angel:

[EKozski]

Jealousy is an ugly monster. It's a known fact.

I saw a Sim someone had created, and the very first post was a bash. I denfended the creator, and the post under mine defended her also. She had explained herself in the post describing the look she was going for. It was Robert Downy, Jr. as Tony Stark.

Now, if anybody had read the Iron Man comic years ago when he first started drinking, he actually did look like that. I remember it well.

But, insulting someones work is pretty bad. Me, I'm in awe. I wish I could do the stuff other people do. I can't even build a house.

[Spongity]

Quite frankly, I think this problem mostly just comes from the fact that this is the internet. You have idiots on the internet, and trolling and flaming is not unique to the Sims 2 community. Because of this, the problem will never fully disappear.

I agree with you, however, that maybe there is a problem that stems from the community itself. I've only had that sort of behavior directed at me once, and it was a ludicrous claim which I defended myself against and moved on from. I think if people did that more, moving on from and ignoring the idiots in the community, there would be less of a problem. When those who are "attacked" (I think that's an over-dramatic word) start to make a huge deal of it, it seems like it creates more of a problem.

Maybe I see less of a problem because I only choose to be active in parts of the community where this drama is less likely to occur. The only contest forum I frequent is InSim's, which is regularly drama-free. I have noticed problems in the picture taking community which I'm also fairly active in, however. This problem almost always stems from self-hate, however. You know, people talking about how nobody ever comments them on their pictures and saying "omg I hate this pic, look how bad it is!!!!" so much that it just looks like they're fishing for compliments. That bothers me, but again, I'm picky about how much I get involved. I'm somewhat of a hermit on my flickr, I'm not really interested in getting a billion people to view/comment on my pictures. I just take pics for my own amusement, and if people like them, then that's cool.

If more people remembered it only matters what they want to do with their own game, not what the community wants, then maybe people wouldn't be getting so upset all the time. I think people tend to forget that this is just a game and this is just the internet. I don't consider much of what I do art or anything, it's just me having some fun with my dorky little pixel people. I kind of wish everyone would just lighten up a bit every now and then.

[lewisb40]

I also will admire work of other simmers, I take interest in what others perceive as art or the best world in their own eyes. I will always praise any simmer for that reason, not out of sarcasm or fiction.  I have seen sarcasm for others work, but I could care less what you might think of my work. I am not sharing for the constant buttwork that likes to put others down. I am sharing to the simmers who do like my work, (which is not much, all I do is build).

Tenshii, I hope you are not giving any attention to those who do put people work down, they write just to get that. More often than not, they have not contributed to the community at all, other than to give an opinion that nobody should care about!

Jealousy= immaturity. Grow UP!

[Tenshii~Akari]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.  :angel:

NeeCee, it's not so much as giving them spotlight (because it's the last thing they really deserve), but to shed the light on those who don't realize it's still going on... in most times for some people, it's in a racial slur or heavily-implied stereotype, unfortunately, and this is where the line gets drawn.  I'm trying my best not to give trolls publicity they think they deserve, but for some odd reason, it still seems they steal the spotlight either way.  Bad little demons!  :tongue3:

Spongity, you've definitely hit the truth there... I understand it's going to happen no matter what.  It is the internet... trolls were probably the first thing to come into existence soon after it was created.  :lol:  I've definitely seen a good number of trolls outside of the community... in most cases, there's more trolls than active participants.  It's one reason why I stay in lurk mode anywhere outside of a sims 2 site, because it just isn't worth it.  I mean, c'mon, look at YouTube.  :lol:  And you do bring up a valid point on the "attacked" issue.  It's good not to dwell on it, but it does need to be addressed to a point.  Sometimes when a person is ridiculed on work, it's passable... the only time it gets difficult to do is when said person has not only been ridiculed, but their entire culture and beliefs splattered with slurs of any kind.  I admire any person who walks away from that without so much of a bat of an eyelash.  It's difficult, even for myself, especially since I have so much pride in my heritage and background.  But then I have to remember that these people don't know what the heck they're talking about, because they don't know me.  Easy to forget when you see choice words, though... after the history they have, it pretty much stings.   (I've been called a certain name, that shall not be mentioned, in RL, so believe me, it's terribly hard to get rid of that sort of resentment of it being said to other people, especially on the web.)

ekozski, the sad truth of the matter... like it's been said before, this happens to a lot of people.  I've even known a few somewhat-known people, in fact, to actually troll someone's work just for the heck of it.  Not one bit of helpful advice was passed, but snide remarks on what they thought was wrong were plainly obvious.  I lost some respect for said people when they did such a thing, and of course the creator was offended by the comments (as this was her creative take on a sim), but chose to move on afterwards with her simming.  

[J00wish]

That's another reason why I love the report button. Maybe it's a problem, or maybe my interpretation. If I think it sounds off I'll simply click the report button with a 'this may be a possible issue' and let the moderators decide.

I can't imagine why someone would tell you how to play your own game... but I have had someone make me feel like the way I posted was wrong... because they didn't post the same way. In the end it really doesn't matter. You do what you enjoy and the people who try to make you do what THEY think is correct can go jump.

[EKozski]

Actually, Tenshii, she did move on. She chalked it up to an opinion. And, she's right. That's all it was.

I've only been a member here for a few short months. I feel very comfortable here. (I even have my very own Stalker!!). I do what I can to help people out. If I'm wrong, I learn something in the process.

As for people telling me how to play my game, never happen. I have a gay couple in my game that I play all the time. They are two of the most funniest Sims I've ever seen. I get a good laugh from them. My partner gets rather upset from time to time because I play the game too much. But, if I feel the need to escape into my personal space, I'll start the game up.

But, you know, trolls are just bored kids/people with nothing better to do than terrorize other peoples lives. Someone crying out for attention. And by replying back to them, we're just playing their game. In the end, it will come back to them. Karma. They never think of the long term. Only the moment.

I have very strong morals, values, beliefs that was instilled in me thanks to my parents. I thank my parents every day for my upbringing. I pick up my dad's picture and visit with him for a bit. Dad died six years ago. I call my mother four or five times a day to make sure she's doing ok. One day a week, I drive her all over town. Take her grocery shopping, Doctor appointments, anywhere she wants to go, I take her. I still tell my mom I love her before we hang up. I come from a very strong Roman Catholic backround. When to a Catholic school and went to a Catholic church.

Yes, this is the internet. Anybody and everybody is fair game. Including me. I'm an out of the closet gay man. I've had my share of ridicule. I've been called a lot of things in my life. But, I didn't let it get the best of me. I just thought I'm better than they are. And, I was. And, I still am. When I was younger, I was gayer than a clutch purse on Tony night. I dressed really different then. I didn't dress up in girl's clothing. I dressed up more or less like a hippie. And, I'd put on a tiny bit of blush, for effect. I was a beautiful gay boy. And, I got my share of giggles and finger pointing. I'd just look at them and say, "you know nothing about good taste," and walked away. Ahhhhhhh, to be young again.

[lewisb40]

I understand your anger and frustration, Tenshii. However, I am older than alot of simmers at this site, and in my youth, I was just as passionate about confronting people on how stupid or inconsiderate their spoken opinion can hurt or injure others. Take this point, while in college, late 70's early 80's, we had lots of campaigns from the Klan (I lived and went to college in Indiana) recruiting new members. They had also been burning dorms and houses of students they deemed inappropriate for higher learning. During one of the campaigns, I was tired of walking pass them trying to get to class, listening to their insidious, drone speeches. Since they were passing out leaflets and expressing students (well what they wanted was white, conservatives) to grab one. I went up and grabbed one of the leaflets, only to be stopped and be rebuked. Expecting this, I argued that I was a student and had a right to get this leaflet, also. Needless to say, I was on a list, which I didn't care cause I had friends from every race, creed, and walk of life.

The point of telling that little story, I would get so incensed and want to retailiate about every time someone would call me a name, it would leave me totally stressed out. I had to learn to ignore and to get them back by being everything they thought I couldn't achieve. Professors and school officials were treating minorities and unconservatives with different lifestyles the same way. I had one professor that told me I would never amount to anything in her class, she would never pass me. Well she wrote nasty remarks on my papers and would pass me with A's and B's on my term papers, but failed me on my final essay, and making it known to NAACP and (she didn't know I had political assets in the state) the state assembly in Indianapolis, she had to give me a passing grade on my finals and be booted from her job a year later.

All and all I am trying to say, once you mature and see the world for what it is, you learn there are other ways to combat what others may think of you or anything you do. Live your life, be the best you can be, and relieve yourself of the stress of worrying about what others think. Your mind will be clearer and if you do come across discrimination that affects your life or job, then you can combat it with the tools that are handed to you. There are always tools when you can outthink an opponent. I learned that throughout my years.

[Tenshii~Akari]

:smile bi:  I see.  I've even started to see a change in my self, especially the past few years.  If I were to hear this type of stuff when I was in my mid-teens, I'd probably be on an all-out tirade, trying to physically defend myself from people's words.  Definitely not the way to go.  I've also noticed how my anger has diminished over it.  I used to mull over stuff like that for weeks, because I was at my most vulnerable and self-conscious place in life.  Now, I'd just be mad about it for most of the day, but a night of sleep and a fresh start to another day makes me forget about all that stuff.  It really helps.  :dance:

I know I can't change the way people think... and I definitely know I'm preaching to the choir here.  :lol:  But in all honesty, it's really something I want to learn on both sides of the issue... hopefully in asking that, there will (eventually) be someone on the other side of the fence willing to tell their view on it.  I'm not asking for something to start a bash fest with.  Just so that we (those who have gone through said discrimination) can know why they (those who may do it in some way, form or fashion) choose to do it without so many assumptions.  One can always assume that there's narrow-mindedness, ignorance, self-hate, or just overall meanness to factor in, but just to be fair, I do want to hear it in some way.  :angel:

(Maybe I'm asking for too much right there, or maybe it's just bound to bring drama?  Don't want that to happen... I'm just a curious little George sometimes... hopefully it won't get out of hand. :laughing:)

[AlbinoBambi]

Honestly, I don't understand how people can discriminate. It's about the person in itself, not about where they come from or what color their skin is. Of course those things are part of the person, but that doesn't make him/her any less or more than other people. In the end it all comes down to the way you act, what your morals, values and beliefs are.

But, looking at it from the other side, of course a lot of what is said, is just plain wrong. But there are also the cases where it was meant as a joke, but got misunderstood. The hard thing about the internet is, that you can't hear how somebody says something, and you can't see their faces.

I personally try to stay polite and friendly, and the only times I fail in that is when (it seems like) somebody is just plain lazy and posts in the (obviously) wrong section or asks questions that have already been answered 10 times.
Most of the time, I just choose to ignore the people that irritate me.
About creators and all, I can't imagine you being mean because you're jealous. Jealousy in itself I can understand, I'm easily jealous too, but seriously, these people are kind enough to share their talents with the world so you can make your game even more enjoyable, and you go and call them or their stuff names? And if you don't like something, just don't look at it and go search for something that you do enjoy. Apparently there are people who like it, otherwise it wouldn't be on the web, so just let it be.

So yeah anyways, what I'm trying to say is 'choose, and let choose'.
But don't go around 'attacking' people for how they play their game and who they are.

Peace!

[steelguy]

My Daddy always raised me to speak my mind on all things and never hold back an opinion.

But I ignored him.

If I like a thing I'll say so, otherwise I keep my mouth shut. I mean, who wants to hear my negative bleating? When I do see the trolls coming out and flaming I want to respond with: "Nobody wants to hear that, buddy - just zip it."

But that only makes things worse. I've seen it. As much as it hurts, I think the best response is no response. I dream of the day when the trolls are reduced to posts like "Helloooo?? Is anyone reading this?" A lone, whiny voice, shouting in the dark...

Peace indeed.

[vanessa]

Discriminating people have very little self respect or non.
I would not give attention to them.Of course,if you share something you created you should be acknowledged.If someone doesn't like it,he/she should not download it,that's all.
I feel a bit guilty because there was a tread about killing or torturing sims(someone said he put the babysim in the microwawe and it was fun seeing it exploding) and I expressed my ...disgust(it's not the right word,my english is poor) and I shouldn't have,I wasn't able to play for several month ,anyhow.
Tenshi,you are always very considered and warm person,it's sad somebody made you feel this way,but discriminating people have serious problems themselfs.
Me,I love diversity,different races,styles,fashions,colours.
It's good you took it up,thank you.
By the way,I love your avatar as usual.Is it d/l-able ?
Hundreds of huggs
alga

[YANFRForm]

Hi, there!  Just another choir member here, but I can definitely relate.  These things happen when you get outside someone's "norms" - their definitions of the world.  The thing about the internet is it opens up windows to new things that you never knew about before.  Unfortunately, they'll sell an internet connection to anyone, even if the small-minded petty person isn't ready for the opportunity to play nice with the rest of the world.

I'm a moderator and creator at Simmergirl.com.  We make feminine things to turn male sims into female sims and let male sims live feminine lives.  You couldn't imagine the disgusting posts I've seen attacking our site; the outright maliciousness.  If I bothered to reply to these persons, I would tell them that nobody forced them to come to our site.  Nobody twisted their arm.  Instead, as a moderator, I take great pleasure in deleting their threads and/or posts, banning them, and deleting their accounts.  I have no patience for trolls and other small-minded prejudiced creatures.

[spiderviveka]

Even if you don't like someones pictures or sims, why bother being cruel? As the saying goes, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[MaryH]

Or as another saying puts it:

 "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."