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Author Topic: Paysite Discussion Thread  (Read 65241 times)
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PegasusDiana
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2007, 03:09:56 pm »

Ok I know I promised only one post, I'm gonna post just one more time. People on both sides want to point toward copyright law. This I do not understand? This has nothing to do with Copyright law per se, nor with trademark law. It has to do with Contractual law which is in EA's corner. Who among us thinks they can stand in front of a judge and have him say why did you agree to that contract if you didn't agree with it? Well I didn't know what was in it. This is not a ground for a defense.

What we have with EA is a contract a very legal contract, and we have to agree to said contract in order to install the game. Which is why there is the "I disagree" button. EA nor anyone else stands over us with and forces us to agree with their contract. That is totally our choice.

It is very similar to the contract ghost artists sign with more popular artists for them to sign off on. Contractual law and copyright law are two very different things. And ignorance of a contract you agree too is 0 grounds in a court of law for violation of that contract. The very minute we click on the I agree button we forfeit all said intellectual rights by a legal and binding "Contract" we have made with EA. Giving them "Contractual Copyright" which we no one else we agree too by contract.
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babyblue1387
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2007, 04:59:12 pm »

Quote from: beosboxboy;755799
therein is the quandary for jurists, Spongity.  The fact that there is a pre-attachment of a copyright to things in the EULA renders the EULA illegal in its very basis in the opinion of the 17 lawyers and 3 judges that would speak to me on this matter.


Beos, I'm a little confused as to how this makes the EULA illegal. I'm not sure how that works out. Anyway, I know people are going to be unhappy about this, but FOR ME, the EULA is a non-issue in this debate. If no one is going to enforce a law (for exmaple, jay-walking), then it might as well not exist. This doesn't mean that it's not wrong, just that it has no point. You could argue until you're blue in the face that it's against the EULA, but it won't do you a bit of good. I also think disregarding the EULA might make people come up with something more compelling. Like instead of the EULA being the FIRST retort, people might say "if you're claiming you need help with bandwith costs, try this. It will make it so you'll practically pay nothing. Now, if you do this and still charge, you probably don't need the money. If you ADMIT that you're doing this purely for financial gain, then I think I can live with that." Maybe, maybe not.
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CB2001
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2007, 07:36:25 pm »

I understand why paysites need the money: to pay for the server that is hosting their site and contents.

However, I'm the kind of person that uses stuff strictly from freesites because they are free.  There's a difference between asking for donations to keep a site going (sometimes, the donation is through either paypal or the opening of a CafePress site with T-shirts and coffee mugs for sale) and having to pay for a monthly subscription.  The difference is choice.

But I do believe this is a "Fair-Use" law in the U.S.  I don't know much about it though.  I do know know this: If someone makes a machinima short with their game, as long as they are not making money off of it, they're not liable for copyright charges.  I know that Rooster Teeth sales items that are "Red vs. Blue" related (namely, popular quotes printed on T-shirts), but they do not feature any of the actual characters of images of the characters from their series.

Of course, it's always going to be debated.  There'll never be a solid end to it, that is unless the mods of the board delete this post and any other posts about it.  That's probably the only way that this topic is ever going to stop being discussed.
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Spongity
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2007, 10:37:47 pm »

No one is forcing paysite owners to have their own site that they have to pay for. There's plenty of sites like InSim and MTS2 that will host all your content for free. Also, people have analyzed how much certain sites make from their 'donations', and usually the numbers are way higher than a site should cost.
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babyblue1387
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2007, 11:51:52 am »

I understand the want for your own site. In larger places that will host your content, like InSim or MTS, your work may get overlooked. I'm pretty sure that many people don't take the time to go through and look at every section, or every new download, and it's unrealistic to ask mods and the like to post EVERY new creation. So, in this respect, I understand the want for your own space.

I am, however, of the opinion that if you can't pay for it, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you put up a paypal button and say you need money for the site, or ask for alternatives, that's fine. When you create the website, you need to be aware that it costs money to do this. If you're not, and find yourself in a black hole of debt because you can't pay for this webspace, the LOGICAL thing to do would be to close the site. People may be sad, yes, but it's not their fault that YOU planned poorly, and they shouldn't have to pay for it.
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Tomkat
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2007, 07:22:19 am »

On this topic: I get that the stuff on most paysites took a lot of time and patience to create and I get that the creators want some kind of 'return' for it.
Also I get that many of the people who want to download the creations cant pay for it, or are underage etc.  
This storm will never blow over, its useless trying to fight paysites.  
Instead: use your discretion when downloading.  If a paysite offends you in some way stick to free sites.  Just dont bother with them and they wont bother with you.  Its not like they're withholding something that belongs to you...its their content and they can do with it what they want.

Having said that Im confessing to using the booty when I see something I really like.
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pickpock
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2007, 10:18:42 am »

But the problem is; a lot of people, where of I am one, thinks that it's really *not* their content. So, they haven't got the right to sell it. Not i if it's made in BS or HC, nor if it's in a .package file.
When agreeing to the EULA the player/creator gives away their rights to their created CC.
And without agreeing to the EULA, you can't install the game...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:22:28 am by pickpock » Logged

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kathy
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2007, 10:37:59 am »

Play devil's advocate if I work on a mesh and spend some 30 hours perfecting it that doesn't mean it is any less mine because I put it in a package file than a painting that someone paints on a canvas by x manufactorer. I can still take my mesh and sell it on a site such as Turbo Squid. My real problem lies in the ones selling the content that they took from the Poser community or other 3d communities, coverting those and then selling them. Other than a conversaion, mapping it and texturing it they performed no real work which they claim to and are misrepresenting themselves to the community.
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baileybop
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2007, 10:46:59 am »

I'm envious of anyone who can create. I have cognitive disabilities, cannot focus, concentrate etc, so learning the complexities of creating is beyond me. Having said that I will admit to falling into the Pay-Site --oh I have to have that, and willingly paid for it. My choice. Having said that, I went on my merry way downloading this that and everything, and then found my game to take close to an hour to load. So I went about the lengthy task of cleaning out my downloads folder. And what did I discover?Huh?
To my utter shock and amazement 95% of my "get rid of this" was my pay site downloads.
Then I discovered this site, along with it's sister site and MTS2, and I was in  download heaven. With one small problem, I love with all my heart the creations by Cashcraft at The Sims Resource, so that is the only pay site I continue to be a member of.
I did try several times to make clothing, but my results were enough to scare a hungry dog away from it's breakfast. If making clothing was that difficult I can only imagine the time and effort put forth in the creation of objects. And new meshes----well I can't even imagine the work.
I understand someone wanting to be reimbursed for all the work they put into something, I crochet afghans and sew quilts, but not for free, (unless I am giving one as a gift) and yet, I am so incredibly grateful for the many talented and excellent artists who unselfishly offer up their delectable goodies for free.
This game would have long ago lost it's appeal for a great many of us, if it weren't for the Custom Content, offered by such wonderful sites as this one. And times have changed for me as well, now that I am on a disability pension, I no longer can afford to frequent the Pay-Sites, as I once used to.
I am of the opinion that EA would benefit beyond belief if they hired some of the creators from these free sites to actually create for the game itself and future expansion packs. The content of the game itself would be vastly improved leading to possible higher sales.
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pickpock
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2007, 10:47:31 am »

Quote from: kathy;759398
Play devil's advocate if I work on a mesh and spend some 30 hours perfecting it that doesn't mean it is any less mine because I put it in a package file than a painting that someone paints on a canvas by x manufactorer. I can still take my mesh and sell it on a site such as Turbo Squid. My real problem lies in the ones selling the content that they took from the Poser community or other 3d communities, coverting those and then selling them. Other than a conversaion, mapping it and texturing it they performed no real work which they claim to and are misrepresenting themselves to the community.


exactly, while the package file still belongs to Maxis, I don't see how the mesh could be anything other than yours. If you've made it with Poser or Milkshape, which are two non-Maxis/EA programs, they legally shouldn't have any rights to it. Nor to textures made in Photoshop or Paint Shop.
But if it goes into a .package, the file it self is not yours to sell.
 But I know HP has talked about this over at S2C. It probably is possible, to legally sell what *could* be made into CC. Like texture files and meshes. If of course, you've made them yourself,, so you'll own the Copyright.
They're not in a .package, not made with any copyrighted "Tools and Materials" so who could stop you?


Edit: baileybop - I think clothes are hard to make too >_< and you'll never see me even try about doing a mesh... *shiver*
Everyone sucks big time when they first start out with creating. lol, try doing eyes... Wink I can personally attest that it's not that hard ^_^ Especially if you start easy and just take an eye from a photo Smiley
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:59:34 am by pickpock » Logged

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babyblue1387
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2007, 03:25:25 pm »

One question I forgot to ask last time:

In order to sue someone for using your content, it has to be copyrighted, right? In order to obtain a copyright, you have to send in some kind of application and go through some kind of legal paperwork, right? Now, how many of these paysites, or sites in general, who claim to have a copyright ("this hair was made by me, babyblue, and is copyrighted. DO NOT STEAL!") have actually gone through all the steps necessary to obtain a LEGAL, BINDING copyright for their work? Would one even be issued since it's for a game that none of these people had a hand in creating?
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sabrasivonsky
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2007, 06:09:02 pm »

No, in the US, at least, you don't have to file any paperwork or make any statement in order to claim copyright.  All you have to do is produce the creation in a tangible form.

I agree that while EA owns the right to the use of the .package file, any mesh or recolor of a mesh belongs to the individual creator and can legally be sold. What EA forbids is making commercial use of its tools--in this case, the .package file.  It doesn't have any legal standing regarding meshes or recolors of original meshes that aren't dependent on the use of any of its tools.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 06:12:53 pm by sabrasivonsky » Logged
babyblue1387
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2007, 12:14:22 am »

Doesn't someone have to approve the creation? If there's no kind of documentation, what's to stop me from claiming I created something first and you violated my copyright when it's really the other way around? I know that this can be taken to court, and people have won cases. There has to be a way for a judge to see some kind of legal, binding document saying that this material is yours.
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fliplife
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« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2007, 04:31:51 am »

well I was think of trying to look at some pay sims 2??? but does any 1 knoe if any is worth the money?Huh?
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PegasusDiana
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« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2007, 05:15:12 am »

Here's a question for you...do you download a lot from free sites? Such as Insim and MTS2? If so I think before you decide to support pay sites, you should consider donating to them. They pay outrageous server costs and keep all content free. If we don't support them...snag things here, then go and pay for stuff elsewhere. Why should they remain free? Why not they too go pay? People snag from us for free then go and pay for it elsewhere. You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying they ever would, in fact I don't believe they ever would. I just think if were downloading a ton of stuff from them, then go and pay for stuff elsewhere we should consider donating to them first...for maintaining free sites for us. As far as are paysites worth it? Each person has to make their own decision on that.
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