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Author Topic: Paysite Discussion Thread  (Read 64319 times)
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miros1
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« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2007, 01:10:36 pm »

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;838132
I don't know much about running a website but if they would allow people to redistribute their free items wouldn't they be able to free up space on their website bringing the maintenance costs down? I don't know...


1) If they're attempting to pay for their costs with ad revenues, reducing the number of page views where the ad is located reduces their ad revenues (or potential revenues).
2) God forbid, the creator makes a mistake in the mesh.  If everyone and his brother is redistributing the mesh, how in heck are you ever going to help downloaders, who may be very inexperienced in sorting out mesh problems when there are 2 or 3 versions out there?
3) No creator worth his or her salt is going to delete his or her own work from a personal site to "free up space."  Be real.  Even if I gave SiteX "exclusive distribution permission," I'd still have a copy on my site.  Poop happens, SiteX closes... you get the picture.
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« Reply #151 on: July 22, 2007, 01:29:50 pm »

I'm not saying delete all of the original files. That wouldn't make sense. I'm saying to rotate through the free files. They don't have to have all of them at once. Also, it's not that hard to select the files and their mesh for upload. It's not like I'm talking rocket science or anything. I know I received a lot of my custom content through downloading lots. Clean Installer is very easy to use. It's almost dummy proof. I just started uploading lots and I find it very easy to sort through the files that don't belong.

There is really no need to be nasty. I stated at the end of my post that I DON'T KNOW!
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« Reply #152 on: July 22, 2007, 02:21:41 pm »

Just another thought about the whole redistribution thing... I think that maybe the original creator can coordinate with other sites to host some of their files that way they can free up some space so they won't need as many donations. But whatever, that's just my opinion.
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« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2007, 08:13:45 am »

My thoughts about paysites have changed over the Sim years from:

1. Longing for paysite downloads.
2. Finding PMBD and being disgusted by it.
3. Finally stop caring, see the light, and go on a download binge at PMBD. LOL
4. Wanting to put an end to all paysites.
5. Not caring what happens to paysites, just as long as I get pay content for free.

I don't care what the hell happens to paysites. If people are stupid enough to pay for pay content when they can get it for free, that's fine by me. Peggy, Rose, Exnem and all of those other pay creators can be billionaires for all I care, just as long as I can get their content for free. Cheesy
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miros1
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« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2007, 10:33:02 am »

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;838162
There is really no need to be nasty. I stated at the end of my post that I DON'T KNOW!


I was not being nasty.  If you wanna see nasty, scroll up and read my previous post about not teaching pigs to sing.  I am not saying you're a pig that can't be taught to sing, like the poster I was responding to above.  

In my response to you, I was stating simple facts in a blunt manner.  You asked, I answered, now you know.

To continue answering:

Please lose the "free up space" concept.  That's only valid for Yahoo! egroups or incredibly small hosting packages that are probably completely insufficient for a Sim site anyhow.  Space on a server's hard drive is cheap.  

The boogeyman of all Sim sites is bandwidth, which has to be paid for as it's consumed or the hosting company shuts the site down until the next month.  You'll notice that Eric's donation drive posts talks about paying for bandwidth, not server space.  The rules about file types and compressing submitted files are to reduce bandwidth consumption, both upload and download, not to save "space."  

Your "authorized redistribution" idea is somewhat similar to having a "mirror site," where if the main site goes down, a secondary site takes over.  All it does is switch around who pays for the bandwidth.  I doubt many people have enough excess bandwidth to host very much of someone else's stuff.  Not a bad idea, just not practical.

Example: I worked for a small company who once agreed to "mirror" a development tool for programmers.  Big mistake.  Their downloaders devoured the bandwidth we needed for our operations and company website.  They were looking for another mirror within days.

BTW, I recommend that the non-creator commentors (which clearly doesn't include SolidGoldFunk, who makes very nice houses) on this thread try actually submitting something, no matter how simple.  Taking something from a concept in your head all the way through the process of creation, import, checking with SimPE or CleanInstaller and in the game, screenshot, uploading, composing the post to describe it and give credit where due is not trivial.  Yes, each step is easy, some ridiculously so, but each step is either crucial to the process or makes your creation more easily used by the downloaders.  When you've done this process at least once all the way through, then we'll talk about who is entitled to make the free or pay decision for my stuff!

I'll attempt answer any questions on creation or submission.  Just ask.  Right now, I'm answering this thread instead of looking for an answer to someone's problem with screenshots.

My "anti-paysite rant," just to be even handed:  If you're going to charge people, your product should be as close to perfect as humanly possible, or you fix it the first time there's a complaint (on technical merit, not artistic).  I'm not the most prolific creator out there, but my stuff works in the game and does what it's supposed to!  

I do contribute to paysites.  I don't contribute to ones with a reputation for shoddy workmanship and not responding to complaints.  I think we all know which sites those are.  I also don't download their stuff from PMBD and attempt to justify taking all of it because some of their files are shoddy.  

If I were going to donate for a particular item, I might download it to make sure it's good quality, then pay for it.

Rosalie A. Dieteman
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 10:37:07 am by miros1 » Logged

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« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2007, 10:53:54 am »

Quote from: miros1;839315
I was not being nasty.  If you wanna see nasty, scroll up and read my previous post about not teaching pigs to sing.  I am not saying you're a pig that can't be taught to sing, like the poster I was responding to above.  

In my response to you, I was stating simple facts in a blunt manner.  You asked, I answered, now you know.

To continue answering:

Please lose the "free up space" concept.  That's only valid for Yahoo! egroups or incredibly small hosting packages that are probably completely insufficient for a Sim site anyhow.  Space on a server's hard drive is cheap.  

The boogeyman of all Sim sites is bandwidth, which has to be paid for as it's consumed or the hosting company shuts the site down until the next month.  You'll notice that Eric's donation drive posts talks about paying for bandwidth, not server space.  The rules about file types and compressing submitted files are to reduce bandwidth consumption, both upload and download, not to save "space."  

Your "authorized redistribution" idea is somewhat similar to having a "mirror site," where if the main site goes down, a secondary site takes over.  All it does is switch around who pays for the bandwidth.  I doubt many people have enough excess bandwidth to host very much of someone else's stuff.  Not a bad idea, just not practical.

Example: I worked for a small company who once agreed to "mirror" a development tool for programmers.  Big mistake.  Their downloaders devoured the bandwidth we needed for our operations and company website.  They were looking for another mirror within days.

BTW, I recommend that the non-creator commentors (which clearly doesn't include SolidGoldFunk, who makes very nice houses) on this thread try actually submitting something, no matter how simple.  Taking something from a concept in your head all the way through the process of creation, import, checking with SimPE or CleanInstaller and in the game, screenshot, uploading, composing the post to describe it and give credit where due is not trivial.  Yes, each step is easy, some ridiculously so, but each step is either crucial to the process or makes your creation more easily used by the downloaders.  When you've done this process at least once all the way through, then we'll talk about who is entitled to make the free or pay decision for my stuff!

I'll attempt answer any questions on creation or submission.  Just ask.  Right now, I'm answering this thread instead of looking for an answer to someone's problem with screenshots.

My "anti-paysite rant," just to be even handed:  If you're going to charge people, your product should be as close to perfect as humanly possible, or you fix it the first time there's a complaint (on technical merit, not artistic).  I'm not the most prolific creator out there, but my stuff works in the game and does what it's supposed to!  

I do contribute to paysites.  I don't contribute to ones with a reputation for shoddy workmanship and not responding to complaints.  I think we all know which sites those are.  I also don't download their stuff from PMBD and attempt to justify taking all of it because some of their files are shoddy.  

If I were going to donate for a particular item, I might download it to make sure it's good quality, then pay for it.

Rosalie A. Dieteman
Software Engineer
Rose/Miros
Former Webmistress, The Wooden Simolean, a SimsHost subscriber supported site

Asking someone to "be real" sounds nasty, especially when I stated from the beginning that I don't know how this works. To tell me to "be real" is making the assumption that I know how everything works. In my mind I was being real. This is typing not talking so it's hard to get the attitude behind the words. I apologize for misinterpreting your mood.

Also, I didn't just come up with this "free up space" concept out of the blue. I read it on one of the sites saying that they need the money to continue hosting the files since they take up a lot of space and of course bandwidth. Why is it such an impractical idea? Many creators have their stuff featured on different websites anyway. Just don't limit your creations to one and don't have the same items featured on too many websites. Sure that means more searching around for us cc fanatics but I think it will be worth it.

I know what you mean about shoddy work though. I think The Sims Resource has some creators with shoddy work. The majority of the stuff there seems okay to me, even though I don't use that site much anymore since they have such strict policies on using items and the creators don't write back when you ask for permission to use their stuff. This takes away from something that people make such as a house or a sim. Anyway, that's another story but as for the paysites... I still think people should be allowed to charge for their content. However, like you said, if they are going to charge then it should be as close to perfect as humanly possible.

To counter your argument that people should be able to donate after they see it works well... I don't think that some paysites would make the money they want/ need. People may get the product and no matter how well it works or how much they love it they probably won't donate. I know I would, you know you would but I don't think people are that honest.

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Sandman&Co
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« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2007, 11:06:57 am »

I don't mess with paysites I donate to Freesites when I can
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« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2007, 01:55:41 pm »

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;839326
Asking someone to "be real" sounds nasty, especially when I stated from the beginning that I don't know how this works. To tell me to "be real" is making the assumption that I know how everything works. In my mind I was being real. This is typing not talking so it's hard to get the attitude behind the words. I apologize for misinterpreting your mood.


The number one rule of creative work of any type is "keep a master copy that is 100% under your control."  That's what I meant by "be real."  Anyone who trusts anyone else, mother, sister, best friend, with the master copy is naive.  Anyone who trusts someone they met on the Internet with the master copy is an idiot.

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;839326
Also, I didn't just come up with this "free up space" concept out of the blue. I read it on one of the sites saying that they need the money to continue hosting the files since they take up a lot of space and of course bandwidth.


If they don't have enough "space," they're on a hosting package that is way, way, way inadequate for their needs.  I hope part of their incoming donations went to pay for a better package, which got them more "space" and more "bandwidth", rather than just paying for bandwidth as it was consumed.  You usually also get a better price per megabyte or gigabyte in a package, rather than as "overage charges."  

BTW, I started in April 2001 with a Tripod site and about 6 files.  I had more "space" than I could use at the time.  My site was down for bandwidth more than it was up!

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;839326
I know what you mean about shoddy work though. I think The Sims Resource has some creators with shoddy work. The majority of the stuff there seems okay to me, even though I don't use that site much anymore since they have such strict policies on using items and the creators don't write back when you ask for permission to use their stuff.


Yes, some of the stuff at TSR is shoddy.  There are certain creators that I've put on a mental blacklist, and I just don't download their stuff.  Odds are, they're the same people who can't be bothered to respond to permission requests.

Every TSR creator I've contacted for permission has written back promptly, usually under 24 hours, and most said yes unless they've got an exclusive deal with TSR.  Same goes for items that needed fixing.  Even the ones who have promised TSR exclusivity will let you use their stuff in a house that's posted on TSR (that's the purpose of TSRAA).

Quote from: SolidGoldFunk;839326
To counter your argument that people should be able to donate after they see it works well...


That's not what I said.  If I absolutely fell in love with a certain item from a site that I know has a reputation for shoddy work, I'd do my best to make sure this particular item is not shoddily made, even going as far as to download a hot copy of it.  If I can't find any "positive reviews," "hot copies," etc., well, I'm out an item that I might have gained quite a bit of fun from... and the creator is out $2.50 or whatever price they put on the item.  They should have taken better care of their reputation.  You only get one chance to make a first impression.

Rose/Miros
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:03:10 pm by miros1 » Logged

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« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2007, 02:08:25 pm »

I guess I misunderstood then.
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sakrayami
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« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2007, 03:00:04 pm »

ok, i try again. As to the topic. I do not create sims2 content, i use 3d-programs for other reasons. I am a customer of EA, and the only protection i can get is via their EULA. That's why so many people stick to the EULA arguments, cause that's the only protection they have.

It's not a guestion of money to me. It's a question whether it's right or wrong to claim money for CC - when stated clearly in the EULA that filesharing are ok, sale of CC is not. Nouk has given a good example - her response from EA should be valid enough. That was an answer from EA support on usermade tools.  There is 1 EULA for bodyshop, 1 for homecrafter, and 1 when you install the game. Click, accept and agree.

Reverse engineering is also mentioned in the EULA for bodyshop, i understand this is fully legal for own use, and filesharing, but not for sale.

PS or ETA: Kathy, hope you're in a better mood, i like your avi, i love Inseminator, i am addicted to that toy, and i have fun in the adult-section when i first am there. I am very thankful to the guys who created Inseminator. Straight from my heart that is!



I always thanks the artist of free content, don't clutter anyones guestbooks, are polite and kind.

I can of course only speak for myself, as a downloader of your CC. I rather prefer freesites, in my location or elsewhere in this big world. Free-sites are more polite, and very helpful. I also think they have great content. When someone claim donation from me to unlock a file, so i can download it, it's not a donation, it's sale. I am a bit surprised that creators of skins and other CC support paysites when they create for free themself? Could anyone enlighten me?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 03:34:28 pm by sakrayami » Logged

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« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2007, 04:32:46 pm »

I don't see anyone with a physical or metaphysical gun to your head forcing you to download anything, pay or free!

How does the existence of pay content harm you?  What do you feel you need "protection" from?  Would you like to assume the hosting cost for your favorite pay sites so they could become free sites?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 04:35:25 pm by miros1 » Logged

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« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2007, 05:11:16 pm »

Quote from: sakrayami;839654
ok, i try again. As to the topic. I do not create sims2 content, i use 3d-programs for other reasons. I am a customer of EA, and the only protection i can get is via their EULA. That's why so many people stick to the EULA arguments, cause that's the only protection they have.
 
It's not a guestion of money to me. It's a question whether it's right or wrong to claim money for CC - when stated clearly in the EULA that filesharing are ok, sale of CC is not. Nouk has given a good example - her response from EA should be valid enough. That was an answer from EA support on usermade tools. There is 1 EULA for bodyshop, 1 for homecrafter, and 1 when you install the game. Click, accept and agree.
 
Reverse engineering is also mentioned in the EULA for bodyshop, i understand this is fully legal for own use, and filesharing, but not for sale.
 
PS or ETA: Kathy, hope you're in a better mood, i like your avi, i love Inseminator, i am addicted to that toy, and i have fun in the adult-section when i first am there. I am very thankful to the guys who created Inseminator. Straight from my heart that is!
 
 
 
I always thanks the artist of free content, don't clutter anyones guestbooks, are polite and kind.
 
I can of course only speak for myself, as a downloader of your CC. I rather prefer freesites, in my location or elsewhere in this big world. Free-sites are more polite, and very helpful. I also think they have great content. When someone claim donation from me to unlock a file, so i can download it, it's not a donation, it's sale. I am a bit surprised that creators of skins and other CC support paysites when they create for free themself? Could anyone enlighten me?
Yeah I am.. sorry about earlier.. woke up cranky lol.
 
Thats the thing we don't know what EA thinks. They aren't coming out one way or another. If they think paysites are acceptable I just wish they would say so already. This thing, the entire paysite/freesite debate has put off a lot of creators, both of free and pay content because of this attitude that people have. That they are entitled to content. We pay for the game, we aren't given an agreement by EA that says you will be given cc made by the community. People tend to forget this and then get all snotty and leave hateful messages as which was done to Solander and Kate.
 
Whether we like paysites they do serve as a lesson for the community in a sense that you have two choices, pay or don't pay. If you aren't paying for content you really have no right to bitch at these creators or place demands on them. You should treat those people with respect, at a minimum the same amount of respect you would want to be treated with but too often than not we are seeing an increasing problem of the very opposite happening.
 
When people message me to bitch because the very day an expansion pack is released that the insim isn't updated is a clear sign that people need to check themselves at the door. I try very hard to treat everyone, regardless of who they are, with respect but more and more I am personally feeling hostile and feel like washing my hands of the entire thing.
 
All of this bickering between sites is getting very frustrating. Especially since none of us have any clue as to which way EA is going to lean, if they ever lean. If they announced tomorrow that paysites were illegal then the anti-paysite side would win so to speak and this thread would be closed as it would be moot.. especially seeing as we aren't allowed to have warez discussions per our server companies TOS. But if they rule on the other side, and say that paysites are well within their rights to charge for content then what? Whether any of us like it or not they would be within their own rights and you would have to live with it or continue sharing content thru other means as is already being done.
 
Either way until they say something we can debate this all day and nothing will be done.
 
Also.. please, regardless of someones opinion lets keep this toned down. I don't want to close this thread and I hate banning people. We all have the right to our own opinion, regardless of what it is. As long as people can act like mature adults this thread can remain open. That or I will make my 10 yr old an admin and she isn't as nice as I am. Cheesy
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« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2007, 09:05:32 pm »

Yeah, what everybody said. :angel:

Now, getting back to the question that Kathy posed in the first message in this topic: So, who has the good stuff? Cheesy

I know there's lots of great stuff among the multitude at The Sims Resource and Peggy Sims redefines the word "awesome," but who has some other favorite sites that makes things worthy of my increasingly limited simmish mad money?
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« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2007, 09:19:26 pm »

Personally, I like the stuff in the Wooden Simolean section at SunSims... but that's a shameless, self-serving plug!

Ok... how about Simsational Sandy at SunSims?

BTW, Greg's my webhost.  Otherwise, I'd be running a half-baked paysite.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 09:22:17 pm by miros1 » Logged

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« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2007, 11:55:02 pm »

I love 4Eversimfantasy, Aroundthesims2, and Raonjena for Raonsims.
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