Paysite Discussion Thread

[Marhis]

I think that this matter doesn't make much sense if extracted by its context; obviously any law/contract/etc. is bound to be discussed in court, but it does not pertain our issue.

Copyrights matter if applied on practical issues, like, e.g. EA wants to sell Beos/Marvine meshes to make money off their work; according their EULA they could, but for sure there's room for a debate, and a judge may sentence that EA has to share part of their income to the authors, because of derivative work and stuff, and despite what EA wrote in their EULA.

But in the present context, the fan community, this doesn't matters: the purpouse matters, not the technical details. Who cares what a judge may sentence? Beosboxboy (or Marvine, or Eric, or anyone else's) work is his work, no doubt about it: the community doesn't need copyright laws to deal with community issues.

Good sense and common courtesy (and gentlemen's agreements) should suffice in a community (any community): it's a social unwritten rule. It's when you came to business that these rules aren't good enough, and you need other, stronger, rules and apparatus to protect you and your stuff - and here's where copyrights and laws come at handy.

Paysites chose the easy way: long story short, instead of dealing with their rights, and business duties, they parasitized community social rules for personal money income.

It's all about mutual respect; if you want to be respected, you have to respect the others in return. If you don't, then you'll be left alone. Enjoy.

(p.s. "you" is in generic terms, not aimed to anyone in particular)

[BeosBoxBoy]

EA is the exception but sites like Pandora sims have no interest of making content but stealing others and selling them.
Imagine them taking your bodybuilder meshes, putting them onto their site and selling them, you would be as mad as heck and I'm not joking.
They stole one of Numenors creations, Numenor complained to the site and asked to remove it and they replied stuff about the EULA (Which isn't there in the first place) and saying why they're going to keep them.
If anyone can back this up that would be solid gold

Actually, I wouldn't be mad, a bit annoyed that people would be so foolish as to pay for them perhaps, but not enraged.  Marvine, on the other hand, I can't speak for.

I have no especial problem with paysites pandering my stuff.  I don't even care if they credit me for my work.  Again, I cannot speak for Marvine.

The days of my concern over paysites with my content ended when EA started including body and hair meshes in Sims2Packs of sims exported with BodyShop.  Then it became a matter of deep concern that EA had advantaged themselves of my and Marvine's work.  By this very act, EA made a de facto statement that it owns our work and is furthering the sales of their products through benefit of our work.

In responce to this, we had to make a very painful decision and change our usage policy completely for the benefit of the community, not EA.  I cannot care less if paysites use my content when EA is making so large a statement that it isn't mine in the first place.

[kathy]

Yakov you bring up a point that annoys me... The fact that, even if we make a mesh and port it into the game, it doesn't make the mesh any less ours yet they could take it upon themselves to include it. Now, I was told this so it may very well not be true considering the source, that some wall tv Numenor made ended up in University... or something very close to it. Now again I don't exactly believe the source considering she is a habitial liar but it would it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that they have simply taken ideas from the community and incorperated it into the game after someone else already did it.. which has been done many times.

[vanessa]

I like the beoxboxboy's reasoning,it's very logical to me.It doesn't means I'm promoting for pay sites,I never subscribed to any of them.But the most of them have a free area,and sometimes the things are very nice.I have 7 GB of D/L's,all for free.Of course,one can take position for the copyrights of EA games,but I think they can solve the problem themselfs.The most important thing is,this game encouraged lots and lots and lots of creativity.
I love this site and MTS2.

[StrawberryKisse]

I for one do NOT life paysites. We already pay what 50 dollars for the game, and mabey 20 for expansion packs. Why pay more money, just to get custom clothing. Im sure their are alot of teens out there(like me) who's parents pay for the game, and would not pay extra money so that their child can download off a site. It makes no since. So im all against paysites. I am not one of the people who constantly bash them though(ive seen some of those).

[Dr_Pixel]

Personally, I have no problem with paysites - I don't run one, and I don't pay to download from them.  There is more than enough to download from free sites, and the free sections of paysites, to suit me.

I also don't download from those "filesharing" sites - I think they do a dis-service by making paysite items look like they are a "must have", somehow better than free site stuff.  I also think they are disrespectful of the creators.  I don't see how you can respect any of the creators if you don't respect them all - the same work and effort went into an item whether it is offered for free or on a paysite.

That said, I do have a question for those who are anti-paysite.  What positive benefit do you see to the community that would result if all the paysites were gone?  

Do you think people would be more inclined to donate to free sites?  I don't, most people won't voluntarily donate if they can get something for free.  Look at the small percentage of downloaders who actually bother to even click the "thanks" button at MTS2 for example, and that costs nothing....

[Captain_Shepard]

Dr Pixel, People hit the thanks button if they want to. It's a not a obligation.

About the paysites, I know that there are people who work a lot to make custom content for the sims 2 but in this world people are only satisfied when they see money.

But then you start to think : Why should I spend money on something that doesn't even have a physical form?
Normally people spend their money on stuff that actually exist. I'm not saying a file of mesh doesn't exist but spending 5 $ on it? In my country 5$ are 3 euros.
With 3 euros you can buy many things which have physical proprieties ( Groceries )

So I think that everyone should share their creations still being able to leave a mark on the file claiming the creation has its own. And I hope someday EA Games takes some action agaisn't sites like Peggy or TSR.

[BeosBoxBoy]

Teren Rox, I believe you miss the point of Dr Pixel's very keen observation and long experience as a free site owner here: people don't donate in sufficient quantity to off-set the costs of every high traffic free site.  Considering the regularity that free sites have cost over-runs and the short-fall that results in donation drives, should be more than adequate proof of this.

I see no more equity in the support of a free site being shouldered by 5% of its members for every yahoo that drifts in off the Internet, than I see in the forced maintenace of a site by all members regardless of the quality of the downloads.

The reality of the Internet is it all costs more than you want to believe, and someone has to pay for the bandwidth.

Larxene, There is a strong difference between a totally self-made creation and using the copyrighted characters of a fictional work.  no few of the meshes I have made are my own previously copyrighted work imported into the game.  Yes totally mine, copyrighted with all the proper paperwork, etc.  How EA/Maxis can invalidate my pre-existing copyright is a matter for jurists, and not a matter that can be reduced to the same sort of example you provide.  In point of case, the complaint I have careful expressed in this thread.

In view of your illustration, marriage is a contract.  Therefore, based on your reasoning, as I understand it, there could never be a possibility for divorce or independent thought, creativity, or individualism while married.

[Captain_Shepard]

Well then I want to apologise to Dr Pixel for my '' rude '' commentaries!

I know people don't donate much ( like me ) and should donate to the free sites.
Just say I haven't donate a thing yet because of bad experiences with the internet.

[Nymphy]

Look at the small percentage of downloaders who actually bother to even click the "thanks" button at MTS2 for example, and that costs nothing....

Now that is something that gets to me.

TSR is in many ways a 'bad' paysite, but as a fan site it does many good things (thats debatable..). And it surprises me that the attitude of people there is better then say MTS2. People at TSR click thanks, leave a comment, post in a guestbook and even PM a creator to say thank you - whereas members at MTS2 will at the most click thanks. That thourougly disappoints me...

I agree mostly with your statement, as it is very very true. I think the community needs a major attitude change from bashing creators, to being more thankful and appreciative. Its only a small thing to click 'thanks', but it makes a big difference...

Do you think people would be more inclined to donate to free sites? I don't, most people won't voluntarily donate if they can get something for free.

I disagree...I think a lot of people to donate to a sites that are free. But more so when that site is in trouble..just look at NoukieSims and MTS2, when they stated that they needed donations they got a lot.

-----

As it stands, I am against paysites as, from what EA has said so far, it is illegal to sell content, and I also like the idea that all content is shared in the community. But I would rather see an official statement saying that...hopefully it will happen soon :angel:

[CynaraBlade]

That said, I do have a question for those who are anti-paysite.  What positive benefit do you see to the community that would result if all the paysites were gone?  

There most likely wouldn't be such a huge rift in the simming community, for example. Honestly, I don't know of any examples of how paysites have benefited the community at all. It seems they have only managed to divide the community imho, and alienate a lot of simmers who can't subscribe or fork out for donation items because they are either not old enough to own credit cards, or because their financial situation is dire. Let's not forget those who know that paysites are blatantly violating EA's TOS, a point which I'm sure has been mentioned about 200 billion times over...

[flyingpigeon]

Personally, I have no problem with paysites - I don't run one, and I don't pay to download from them.  There is more than enough to download from free sites, and the free sections of paysites, to suit me.

I also don't download from those "filesharing" sites - I think they do a dis-service by making paysite items look like they are a "must have", somehow better than free site stuff.  I also think they are disrespectful of the creators.  I don't see how you can respect any of the creators if you don't respect them all - the same work and effort went into an item whether it is offered for free or on a paysite.

That said, I do have a question for those who are anti-paysite.  What positive benefit do you see to the community that would result if all the paysites were gone?  

Do you think people would be more inclined to donate to free sites?  I don't, most people won't voluntarily donate if they can get something for free.  Look at the small percentage of downloaders who actually bother to even click the "thanks" button at MTS2 for example, and that costs nothing....

Going with what Nymphy said, you are right. TSR creators probably get more thanks than MTS2. Why? IMO, 1) People are stupid and unappreciative 2) You can earn 'kudos' at TSR for thanking people and leaving comments (oooh! then you can buy a TSR mug!) 3) There are no benefits to thanking people or leaving comments on MTS2.

To your point about donating to free sites, you are probably right again. People don't like paying more than they have to, but there are a few charitable people in this world (emphasis on few). If there weren't paysites (which I realize is incredibly unlikely), these charitable people could use the money that they would've spent on paysites (that are claiming to have bandwith trouble) to help out a struggling free site. Maybe. I can't say since I'm not charitable or rich

If there were no paysites, nobody would pay for content! It's that simple.

You've got a decent point about file-sharing too. It doesn't necessarily respect a creator's wishes. At the same time, paysite creators don't necessarily respect the EULA. And I know that file-sharing can be seen as 'two wrongs to make a right', but IMO, file-sharing is ultimately right. It makes content that (according to the EULA) should be free, free. It's like you said earlier. People won't donate if they can't get it for free.

[Nymphy]

2) You can earn 'kudos' at TSR for thanking people and leaving comments (oooh! then you can buy a TSR mug!)

Aye the pigeon boy speaks sense.

The kudos system benefits the downloader more then the system at MTS2 - kudos at TSR can earn you a free subscription day vs MTS2 thanking a creator gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. Tbh, I really dislike the kudos at TSR...it puts me off from thanking creators, as then they will go pay - like Gelydh, who is a fav creator of mine and I download loads of her stuff, but dont thank her very much as I dont want her to become an FA..

Btw, do you as a creator receive kudos points for people thanking you? Just curious

You've got a decent point about file-sharing too. It doesn't necessarily respect a creator's wishes. At the same time, paysite creators don't necessarily respect the EULA. And I know that file-sharing can be seen as 'two wrongs to make a right', but IMO, file-sharing is ultimately right. It makes content that (according to the EULA) should be free, free.

Liegenshiets (sorry cant spell) forum Garden of Shadows is file share friendly, but the members there still respect a creators wishes. Most pay meshes are included, but free are not. You of course still credit the paysite creator though..I do not agree with editing their content and claiming as your own >.< Er sorry went of on a bit of a tangent there, but I think file sharing is okayish...but giving credit is really important. If PMBD did not give credit to the original creators I would not like it very much..:tongue8:

[Inge Jones]

I've decided I can't be bothered to stand in the line of fire any more just in order to be EA's unpaid legal department.  I no longer run a freesite campaign forum, and I am taking up some of my old paysite subscriptions.

As far as I can see the community is in a far sorrier state now with site-hackings, guestbook trolling, mistrust and bitching than it ever was before this free content activism started and I'm pretty sick of the whole subject now.

[Nymphy]

If thats how you feel Inge..

Your site and attitude was a nice change from others, you created postive change and supported free sites which needed to be done. I strongly hope that you take a break from things and come back to FFFS.