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Author Topic: Paysite Discussion Thread  (Read 64393 times)
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BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2007, 12:14:02 pm »

it doesn't work that way - they take it to court, the judge levels a ruling.  The judge's orders will be constrained by the letter of the law. under the Uniform Commercial Code, there is no leeway, no room for opinion, no grey area.  The judge will say it is valid or it isn't.

If the judge rules it is valid, then the court will issue a cease & desist order to all parties, if the lawyers at EA choose to not enforce the full EULA, then the court will rule that the EULA has been voluntarily abandoned by EA, rendering all agreements invalid.

I find it difficult to believe that a major software company would voluntarily void its own EULA.

The law is not something which one can afford to be naive about.
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pickpock
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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2007, 12:20:35 pm »

Alright on the naïve part, but I still like being an optimist.  And I can admit I know next to nothing about legal matters. ^^

I know most people don't share this opinion, but getting rid of the paysites are worth taking some risks. And sooner or later, this would have happened anyway. EA couldn't possibly have turned a blind eye forever.

But right now, what I think is the most probable action the legal side is going to take, is just to let this die down. Seemes like it would be the safest route to take.
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Dr_Pixel
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« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2007, 04:11:08 pm »

You are making the assumption that paysites are taking money out of Maxis' pockets...

I would be more inclined to think that those people who can afford to subscribe to paysites can also afford to buy every expansion and "stuff" pack that comes out.

My real point is that you can't selectively use part the EULA as a reason to crusade against paysites while ignoring the rest of it.

No matter how you interpret the EULA, it (like all EULA's) is designed to protect the financial interests of Maxis/EA, it is NOT designed nor intended to protect the rights of the "end user" of the game.

Please don't take any of this to mean that I am not in favor of free sites, I certainly am.  Everything I have made is available to download for free, and if you read my "terms of use" it pretty much says "take this stuff and do whatever you like with it".  It's just that whenever I see the word "EULA" pop up as a reason to be anti-paysite, it makes my eyes glaze over.  If you are against paysites, fine - but don't pretend to be defending the EULA when you really don't support it at all.

In any case, I too fear the end result as being that paysites will be shut down, and free sites along with them too.  As BeosBoxBoy points out, Maxis can't legally do anything else.

Either that or they may just let it go until Sims3 is released, but not allowing any user-made content for it at all.

Just as they have done with "Sim Stories".
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vanessa
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« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2007, 07:01:34 pm »

EA should be gratefull for the sites ,pay or free,it's PR for them.I wouldn't play this game without Eric's Insimenator or Inge's schrubs,not to talk about the CC created by very talented people like Beos,Kavar,etc.etc.etc.If they won't admit CC for Sims3 I 'll not buy the game.I don't understand the obsession with anti paysites,if you are against-just don't buy!I never do.
The Maxis clothes and furnitures are-unfortunately-very uggly,so are the hair styles and many other aspects .Sims are getting tired too fast,need the bathroom too often,what would I do without the hacks?How could they run a bussiness?I would play it for some weeks and goodby.I don't even know if the creators are aware of how much they helped EA to sell the game.The creators should get payed by EA!
And you,the ANTI people,cool down,try to take it out on something else.You are creating the swinging pendulum phenomena!
If EA would forbid CC,they would lose,but I (and many others)would lose too.I would miss playing this game!
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Tenshii~Akari
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« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2007, 10:34:51 pm »

Many people are anti-paysite because of all of the crap that has been pulled by them (and not in content, mind you.)  The little scandal about a few other paysites sharing customer info (a.k.a. the filesharer witch hunt), for example, is one reason I could care less if they ceased to exist at this very moment.  At the time, I was actually considering using some leftover birthday money to get a few hairs until I read up on all of those paypal/subscription issues.  No one wants their personal info shared among perfect strangers!  (To this day, I'm still glad I put my money in the tank where it belongs!)  

This is the way I think of it:  For some, being against paysites is just a natural reaction.  It's always been human nature to be highly critical of something we'd have to give money in order to receive.    (Well, that's what my original reason for being anti-pay was.  That was "many a moon ago."  :smile bi:)

This whole issue is still very frustrating to me.  Even when I first got back into sims over a year ago, I never could understand how someone could actually pay for something that would probably end up being deleted anyways.  (And not being able to get it again without the possibility of forking over more cash...)  It's not worth all of that trouble to me.  I guess when money's tight, one tends to think more practically.  (Trust me, I think I'm one of the few people in this world that hates money more than death, and would be willing to throw it away at a simple request... but I know that I need it if I plan on living day to day.  :lol:)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 11:06:25 pm by ~Marvine~ » Logged

BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2007, 11:38:01 pm »

First, I want to stress I am not anti-free-site, nor am I anti-pay-site, not anti-anything.  I am going to speak the cold hard facts of life.

On the matter of businesses sharing information about customers between one another, that is a perfectly legal -- albeit morally suspect -- thing to do.  Only governments are constrained by privacy laws.  When you consider the vast array of spy-ware that is grossly proliferated on the Internet, the fact should become readily clear to you.  Even EA engages in this sort of crap.

On the matter of "customer's rights", it is perfectly legal to exclude or revoke privileges -- note the word "privileges" -- to gain access to a businesses.  Only when it is done for reasons or race, religion, ethnicity, or nationality does it become a matter that has any legal "meat".  Yet even there it is nearly impossible to win a legal contest since the laws are so heavily biased in favour of the business.  Even EA will block a member from the use of their site for various reasons.  I have been banned from the Exchange and the BBS since April, 2005, when I posted a legitimate complaint that TS2 was far short of the promised mark and suggested a boycott of EA until they came through on their promises.

This perception that EA "likes" us or is "our friend" has to end.  As a former EA beta-tester, I can assure you they want NOTHING but your money for a game that will eventually be deleted off your hard drive any way (to paraphrase TenshiiAkari12).  In the cold, hard light of facts, EA and pay-sites are both on the same footing here; however, some things that are categorised as "pay sites" by the extremists within the anti-pay-site mafia are in fact not.  A donation gift is not a "pay item" any more than the Red Cross giving you a T-shirt for donating blood is a "pay item".

The up-shot of all this anti-pay-site sentiment has been to the detriment of all artists, free and pay.  I have been forced to contend with defending my rights to my own work in the centre of this debate, I have actually consulted lawyers, spoken to judges, and done my very best to remain in the right of the law.  I think that there is a great deal of fantasy and naiveté being pandered as truth and fact in the anti-pay-site argument, and, now as the dragon begins to wake, all sites are in deadly peril because of this insane cannibalisation of the community.

As an artist who has donated 10s of 1000s of hours to this community and this game, I can not express my disgust when I see sentiments expressed like "it is worth the risk".  Obviously, I am not alone in this sentiment, but I am candid enough to say it.

As for me, since it is glaringly obvious that this has never been about logic, reason, the rule of law, or discussion, I am through with this, I wash my hands of stupid, vendetta-driven suicide of the Sims community.  You will be able to identify me in the future by the sound of the laughter.
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Baby Ronno
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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2007, 12:35:17 am »

I've never used a paysite, let alone even seen one.  I found out about InSim and MTS2 by word of mouth.
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vanessa
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« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2007, 09:12:03 am »

Beos,I love your work,and I'm sorry you have to deffend it.I know you are not ANTI anything,artists never are.
But I wander what the militants anti pay want to achieve.The swinging pendulum phenomena is - everybody can have sim sites  -versus - nobody can have sim sites.
It's bad sites publish info about the members,that's the uggly thing about Internet and that's the why I'm not using Paypol.But in this argument,creativity suffers,negativity kills creativity,the attention goes to the war.
People like me needs visual satisfaction-nice and various types of bodys,build things,furnitures,etc.the creative part of the game is very important.
EA should commit suicide if theyr game shouldn't admit CC.
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minouz
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« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2007, 05:48:19 pm »

I have been following this discussion for some time now, and i usualy keep quiet. I`m more of a lurker than a talker. This is mainly because i`m shy of writing in English as it is not my native language so i appologise in advance for anny bad spelling. Over the last few month this has gotten realy ugly.
People are slandering eachother, attacks on sites and so on. I love this game and i love this community, i sometimes spent more time on the forums than actualy playing the game. I would hate to see it go down the drain. But that is what is going to happen if both sides don`t back down. Dr pixel, BeOsBoxBoy and Ingejones are so right. I`ts like when you were kids, playing with your toys with siblings or friends. as soon as you start to fight and bash eachothers skull in , your mother would take the toys away to restore the peace. I`m afraid that is exactly what EA is going to do if this doesn`t stop.
And we will all be left with nothing, like Inge said this will end in tears.
As a community as far as it still existst we are all gonna have to learn to play nice again, even if it it means you do not agree on some points, or we will all be sent to our room without supper.And please people let`s not forget what the fight s about , a computer GAME that is surposed to be fun and not envoke this pixelwar. I am ofcourse talking about the war between the paysites versus anti paysite not the discussion about the artists copyrigts to their own work wich is another discussion on itsself. Are these pixeldolls realy worth it, fighting,slandering, badmouthing, and hacking sites over? Again i love this game but this is mostly because of CC and making the game to your liking with it.I worship those people who make this possible,all the great creators out there.And I am pretty certain a lot of players share this vieuw.
Don`t destroy it because you have to be proven right no matter what side you are on.I will go quietly back into my luking corner but I had to get this off my chest.
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purpledaddy
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« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2007, 09:00:19 pm »

I HIPPAA those remarks!  Tongue
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jfade
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2007, 12:17:30 am »

Quote from: Inge Jones;788923
As far as I can see the community is in a far sorrier state now with site-hackings, guestbook trolling, mistrust and bitching than it ever was before this free content activism started and I'm pretty sick of the whole subject now.
After following a link to this specific post, I have to say that this pretty much sums up my attitude about this whole thing at this point. The more I read and hear about this stuff going on the more I get sick of it all. And it's not like it's AVOIDABLE at this point, the crap is spread universally all over the bloody "community".

It's no wonder I can't even be motivated to do anything Sims related anymore, because every time I open the freaking web browser I'm suddenly immersed in debate, etc and waste my time trolling through it to get to some thoughtful, interesting discussion. Perhaps it's just time to shelve the bookmarks to all but the few forums I frequent and can still enjoy and just forget about everywhere else.

*jfade headshakes, headdesks, sighs, and walks away...*
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 12:22:03 am by jfade » Logged

See my hacks and other creations at DJS Sims.
shirokuma
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2007, 01:20:21 am »

I'm not going to go through all of these posts because I've been reading discussions on this topic for a little while now, so if I say something that's already been said, forgive me.

I've been very much a lurker in the sims community for a long time now. I've been playing on and off since the sims 1 days.

To me, this whole pay site argument is circular. The pay site owners feel that they should be compensated for spending long hours creating content. Fine, whatever, but that means you better give me something worth spending my money on, treat me with some respect, and kindly address any issues that I may have with your work, gaps, ect., as long as I treat you with the same respect, and even at times when I don't. As a "business" it is your responsibility to keep the paying customers happy, and pay site owners, from my experience, see it the other way around.

On the other hand free site owners, not all, but some, have this attitude of "well I'm free. I can do whatever I want, and if you don't like it leave." Then a month or two later they want donations. Sure I can donate to you and still have access to all of your content without having to go through "pay walls," but you're driving away people that help keep you afloat in the same way pay sites do. You're angering those that could potentially help you.

To those of you who love to throw in a hobby as a way to justify pay sites, let me use an analogy that's similar to the debate. I'm in school for music business, so I spent a lot of time studying copyrights, intellectual property, and the like.

As I'm sure many of you know by now the RIAA has spent tons of money going after illegal file sharers. Pirating didn't start when Napster came along, that's just when it got out of hand. Like EA will, the RIAA just sat on it until they decided to do something.

Now in today's climate, let's say I take a Bjork song. (For this example Bjork will be EA) It's been copyrighted by her, her publishing company, her production company and her record company. The copyright says that I cannot use ANY part of her material for any type of financial gain. I, (the CC creator in the example) decide I'm going to make a remix of that song and sell it for $2. At this point, I've taken her work and used it for financial gain, but the RIAA does nothing about it.

A year later the RIAA sends me a subpoena to appear in court. During the trial I state that I spent hours perfecting the remix and thought I should be compensated for my hard work. Of course I'd lose and would have to pay X amount of dollars.

Just because the RIAA took a year to get to me doesn't make what I did any more legal than it was when I was sued. Same thing with the sims. Just because you spent hours making it and dragging your butt through the mud in frustration doesn't make it legal. You're still held to the terms you agreed to when to installed the game, which included not selling CC for personal gain.

That said, I don't hate pay sites, I'm just not going to spend tons of money on them because I can get better content for free, and unless I choose to donate, I won't have to deal with any snotty creator who can't take constructive criticism. (Not that all creators are snotty, I'm just making a point.) If you choose to sub to a pay site, fine. If you don't, fine. It's your money to throw away as you wish. Just don't come whining to me when that Peggy hair you bought makes your sim's head look like swiss cheese.
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rosidbon
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« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2007, 03:33:57 am »

This is a really horrible arguement going on here. The cc that you all make is so fabulous and makes playing the game possible.I think my interest would have been over a long, long time ago if not for the work of everyone who makes beautiful objects and sims to replace the hideously ugly maxis content I don't think that it is unreasonable for people to want a little recognition for their work, and to some extent it is also reasonable to maybe get a little monetary reward. Is there no possibility that creators who need to be paid could come to some agreement with EA where EA actually buys their work from them and then offers it for sale as EA product listing the artist as creator?
It seems to me that this would be an arrangement that would suit all. Creators who want to do this as a career could get paid for their work, EA would, at last, have truly creative people working for the game, who were artists and not just computer nerds, and those who just like to make things for other simmers could still offer their work for free.
EA must know by now that their games just would not sell as well as they do if it were not for all the fabulous stuff available out there that really has very little to do with them. I think that if you all used your time and energy in this direction instead of arguing about the intricacies of patent law, etc. something positive and enriching for the whole simming community could result.
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engelchen
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« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2007, 04:09:35 am »

This discussion makes no sense for me. We had the same discussion on my site and I closed the thread.
Why can't we just play the game and be happy, that so many creators are spending their free time to make custom content?
Nobody is forced to pay for downloads!
So why this kind of "war"?
It makes me really sad, that this boring discussion is the reason for some good creators to quit their work!
We should think about that.
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newuserhz
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2007, 04:45:19 am »

I agree with engelchen. Somebody should close this thread rigth now. I am living in a free environment and it would be much better without lawyers.
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