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Author Topic: Paysite Discussion Thread  (Read 65236 times)
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kathy
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« on: June 01, 2007, 03:10:34 pm »

This is the one and only paysite discussion thread. If you are curious whether such and such site is worth a subscription or want to discuss the pros or cons of paysites this is your shot. However, because the last thread got removed because some people flat out bashing people and beating people in the head for having an opinion here are the rules.
 
1. Show the other posters respect. Not everyone is going to share the same opinion as you so it is pointless to beat someone in the head with yours.
2. Do not post things such as Paysites sux0rs.. I only wish to see intelligent, thought out posts or questions. If you can't do this then don't waste our time and yours by posting.
3. No bashing of specific people. If you are dicussing a site then it is inevitable that their name will be used but I do not want to see any useless bashing. Yes this even means no Carla Niven bashing. Been there done that and it has lost it's amusement value.
 
These rules may or may not be updated later depending on how people behave. Also anyone who violates these rules will have their posts moved into a moderation queue for review. Depending on the post you may receive a warning, after 3 warnings a 3 day vacation and or banned from participating in this thread. So again use common sense before posting.
 
Again do not screw this up and make me regret allowing this discussion again.
 
Remember: This is a paysite discussion thread, where I expect discussions, not a paysite bash fest. Show respect to your discussion partners by avoiding bashing, and having well thought out discussions.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 02:21:41 am by kathy » Logged
PegasusDiana
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 03:20:11 pm »

Thank you Kathy, I think I'll bow out of this thread with just one comment. I think everyone knows my thoughts and feelings on this issue. I am not totally against paysites per se so much as the things that are happening on them. I myself have used paysites. I do not believe in anyway shape or form EA wanted their program to be used by others as a means to support themselves. Nor do I believe they intended for people to make a profit off their product. There are laws for this and they are called licensing agreements. That's all I am going to say. If it truly is a bandwidth issue, there are many other ways to address it and should be sought out. Now I'll just zip it Wink
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Nouk
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 03:21:21 pm »

Thank you, Kathy!
 
Let's start out with one of the proofs that EA is not happy with people selling custom content:
 
http://noukiesims2.net/EAconfirms.gif
 
I have sent a letter with specific questions to the EA support desk. This is the answer I got, and I took screenies of it.
 
It's pretty self explanitory, but what do you guys have to say about EA's reaction? Smiley
 
*Edit* LOL pegs beat me too it!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 03:25:17 pm by kathy » Logged

Eric
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 03:54:12 pm »

Hi Nouk,
 
GM Prada's response specifically cited tools created by Electronics Arts.
 
Quote
If you use a tool created by Electronic Arts and wish to charge money for the content created with that tool afterwards, then you are in violation of US Copyright law.

Many people, myself included, do not use Home Crafter or Body Shop in the creation of content. I use SimPe, Milkshape 3D & a paint program, none of which are created, produced or owned by Electronic Arts.
 
Does Prada's failure to include content created by these other tools indicate the exclusion of content created with them from the letter of US Copyright law?
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Nouk
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 04:50:59 pm »

No idea. I should ask again Smiley
But as you are still extracting and editing EA's  Sims 2 game files, and you still need Sims 2 coding for it to be useful, I expect the answer to be 'no'.

*edit* I've submitted the question, i hope I'll get an answer Smiley
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 04:58:02 pm by Nouk » Logged

Corinne
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 04:59:48 pm »

I think it mainly has to do with the actual .package file type used by the sims 2.  I read somewhere (I don't recall where) that as soon as it goes into the .package form it becomes property of EA games.  I could be wrong, however.
 
I've got no stance on paysites anymore, anyways.  They're all human and deserve the same amount of respect any of us do.  So I let them be.
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Eric
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 05:14:48 pm »

Quote from: Nouk;755126
No idea. I should ask again Smiley
But as you are still extracting and editing EA's Sims 2 game files, and you still need Sims 2 coding for it to be useful, I expect the answer to be 'no'.
 
*edit* I've submitted the question, i hope I'll get an answer Smiley

I, too, expect that the answer will be 'no'.
 
Quote from: Corinne;755133
I think it mainly has to do with the actual .package file type used by the sims 2. I read somewhere (I don't recall where) that as soon as it goes into the .package form it becomes property of EA games. I could be wrong, however.

EA's EULA states that if it goes into the game it becomes EA's intellectual property.
 
Quote from: Corinne;755133
I've got no stance on paysites anymore, anyways. They're all human and deserve the same amount of respect any of us do. So I let them be.

I have never had and do not have a stance on paysites.
 
Edit:  If EA officially announces that paysites are a violation of EA's copyright and that they all need to be removed, my stance will be on the side of EA.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 05:27:31 pm by Eric » Logged
Spongity
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 06:24:43 pm »

I'm very glad to see this thread opened, and I hope it can stay open for longer than past threads on this topic.
I don't like that paysites have been violating the EULA for so long, and I'm glad that EA has finally said something about it. To me, paysites are simply selling what is not theirs. Even if someone uses SimPe, Milkshape, or whatever other programs, once they put it in game it belongs to EA and is not yours to profit from. Now that EA's given multiple responses, I don't think paysites can ignore it any longer. Still, as long as these statemets are in the forms of replies to emails, I doubt we'll be seeing much action from paysites.
I also feel that paysites destroy the content sharing EA intended for when they made it possible to edit the game. Custom content creation isn't meant to be a business, it's meant to be a fun and sharing community. Paysites ruin that.
That about sums up my feelings on the matter of paysites.
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2007, 01:57:43 am »

EA's EULA is in fact very specific! It covers not only the tools provided but the game material also. Even if the tools such as Bodyshop or Home Crafter were not used, any CC which is made has to be combined with game material for it to work in the Game. If you use SimPE to make a .package file this is where the combinations take place.

Under current Copyright Laws, what ever you create outside of the game belongs to you. However once you place that creation into a format which the game can utilize, you relinquish your ownership and it reverts to the Copyright holder of the file format.  In the case of CC created for TS2, once it is placed into the .package format leagally it is owned by EA!

This isn't just in The United States, but also falls into International Copyright Laws as well.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 01:58:37 am by Gunny965 » Logged
BeosBoxBoy
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 02:13:52 am »

I will use here an illustration given me by a professor of law to explain why the EULA is in fact extra-legal.

Quote
Suppose you make a painting, one which you have created from materials you already own, the image depicted in the painting is from your own imagination.

Obviously you could grow your own cotton, spin your own thread, weave your own canvas, harvest wood to make the canvas-stretcher, grind your own pigments, mix your own paints; but let us assume you purchased all these things.

Suppose also that you then go to the store and purchase a frame for this painting.

Does the person who grew the cotton have any legal ability to determine how you dispose of the painting?

Does the person who spun the thread have any legal ability to determine how you dispose of the painting?

Does the person who made the canvas have any legal ability to determine how you dispose of the painting?

Does the person who harvested the lumber have any legal ability to determine how you dispose of the painting?

Does the maker of the frame have any legal ability to determine how you dispose of the painting?

Under the law common to all western societies, the answer to all of these is "no".  The ability to limit the way in which you dispose of your own work cannot be curtailed by law.  Even if you charge a fee for your painting, you are charging only for your costs and time, not the possible patent rights of some superior canvas or stretcher frame or frame.

The right of the individual to profit from the fruits of his or her labour is a legally protected right in all Western nations.
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 02:31:14 am »

But the thing is, I don't think a canvas or frame will come with a copyright attached that determines how it will be distributed after purchase (apart from preventing theft and claiming as one's own work). The .package format does have such copyright attached to it. Therefore, EA does get to control how custom content is distributed, and the EULA specifically says it is not to be distributed for profit.
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2007, 02:35:48 am »

therein is the quandary for jurists, Spongity.  The fact that there is a pre-attachment of a copyright to things in the EULA renders the EULA illegal in its very basis in the opinion of the 17 lawyers and 3 judges that would speak to me on this matter.
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purpledaddy
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2007, 07:57:57 am »

All I've got to say as a newbie is that I'm jealous that you and the others can do custom content at all! (and that some of you can read legalese too!) :iconbigg:  shhushh bureaucrat -me!:shh:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 08:00:35 am by purpledaddy » Logged

Thanks CC'ers & Webmaster for your work.
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2007, 08:09:50 am »

Thanks for this thread Kathy Smiley Will be interesting to see what they reply to Nouk's question...keep us posted! Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2007, 01:36:08 pm »

As everyone else has said already, greatly appreciate that this is back in the open again, Kathy!  :angel:

Like Spongity said, .package files are EA's lawfully.  Even if someone edits a mesh/skin extracted from the game, or makes one from scratch and places it within the file, the changes may be that person's hard work, but the file format is still that of EA Games.  Therefore, EA should have a right to say how their game files are to be used.  

And I've seen someone mentioned before that these people selling custom game content through the .package file format could just as well have the skins and meshes for sale by themselves.  Sure, it's pretty inconvenient for people who don't know how to put CC together through SimPE or other means, but it's better than selling it "illegally"...

As to EA's reaction on the matter, it certainly looks like they're getting somewhere... very slowly, but it's somewhere.  At least someone over there isn't turning a blind eye to this issue anymore.  I hope to see how this progresses!  Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 01:38:20 pm by Tenshii~Akari » Logged

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