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Author Topic: SeXy Feet for meshers*Updated*  (Read 39218 times)
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BlooM
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 12:35:32 pm »

Quote from: Xianah;835298
I hate to be a naysayer, but doesn't using Poser 7 content violent the Efrontier P7 EULA? I read it and it states you may noy use any of their content. Sad

They do look really good on the Sims meshes I have seen however.

http://www.e-frontier.com/article/view/2084/1/881/


Got to find out, thnx for the info
People pay 250 dollar for a proggy and you cant use any of the stuff? Sad
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Xianah
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2007, 04:36:31 am »

I know its a bit sucky Sad I feel bad... But I'd feel worse if EFrontier came down on Insim & yourself.
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szielins
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2007, 07:50:16 am »

EFrontier has no grounds to object to Bloom's meshes, or even any reason to want to try.  Heck, they're even polite enough to acknowledge the primacy of copyright law in their EULA:

   D. You cannot sell, resell, distribute, cause to be distributed, or allow any portion of the Restricted Content to be distributed under any circumstances, via any public or private medium, except where expressly permitted by this EULA and US copyright law. . .

Might look a bit scary, but the key phrase is actually "expressly permitted by . . . US copyright law".  Copyright law exists to prevent commercial sale of somebody else's commercial work.  Its goal is to forbid large scale, outright, and blatant theft that profits the thief.  Hence, just because something is under copyright does not mean no part of it may be used under any circumstances.

There is a four part test for whether or not something is considered "fair use":

1. Purpose and character of use. Bloom is not selling anything; he's giving his work away for people's own private use.  Putting up a mesh is a clear example of a thing whose purpose is to "stimulate creativity for the enrichment of the general public"; he's providing a tool.  Having Bloom's meshes does not "supersede the objects" of Poser 7-- which is to say, having Bloom's meshes is in no significant way a substitute for having Poser 7.

2. Nature of the copied work.  Irrelevant here; nobody is arguing that Poser 7's feet by its nature have to be in the public domain-- they have no great educational value, are not historic documents, etcetera.

3. Amount and substantiality.  Only a miniscule fraction of the data from the Poser 7 distribution appears in Bloom's meshes.  Nor are the feet the most important part of Poser 7; nobody could argue that there are hordes of people wanting to buy Poser 7 because they really, really want the feet.

4. Effect upon work's value.  No sane lawyer would try to convince a judge that Bloom's meshes being available measurably decrease the value of Poser 7.  Indeed, one could argue that this whole thing increases Poser 7's value-- on public relations grounds alone.


Wikipedia's article on "fair use" is readable, but of course it was witten by a nebulous cloud of people.  Fortunately, one Terry Carroll-- who teaches intellectual property law-- maintains a FAQ that's still quite understandable by laymen:
http://www.tjc.com/copyright/FAQ/
Of particular relevance:
http://www.tjc.com/copyright/FAQ/CFAQ02.html#2.8
http://www.tjc.com/copyright/FAQ/CFAQ02.html#2.9
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 07:57:18 am by szielins » Logged
BlooM
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2007, 08:49:55 am »

Never the less Wink
I wait on EFrontier reaction on this post as i mailed it to them.
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RoofMonkey
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2007, 09:38:51 am »

Good luck.
It's beautiful mesh and it would be a shame if all your hard work on this cannot be shared with others of the Sims2 community.
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Warlokk
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 09:29:32 am »

Hmm, I kinda wondered about this too, which is also partly why I went with a really old set of meshes for mine... nobody's gonna care about 10-year-old low-poly feet.  I think they'll be reasonable though, I mean folks sell all kinds of stuff that is based on the Poser meshes in some way or another over at Renderosity, although they don't distribute the meshes... but you're not either, just a small part of the raw vertex data, and it's been altered significantly.  We'll have to see how they respond, I guess.  Damn Intellectual Property laws are just ridiculous anyway...
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szielins
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 12:25:32 pm »

Quote from: gothplague;836670
but still, we will just have to wait and see what happens with their reply.

Quote from: Warlokk
We'll have to see how they respond, I guess.


How they respond will not change the fact that it remains fair use.  Note too that EFrontier has little or nothing to gain by saying "yes", and at least potentially has something to lose,  At a minimum, answering "yes" constitutes amending their agreement between Bloom and EFrontier, which has legal implications.  This would have to be formally vetted by their lawyers to make sure they don't accidentally weaken their own copyright claims-- and lawyers are not free.  Ergo, I know which way I'm betting their response will go...  (I'd also give it a 50% chance they suggest that people who want to use the feet in their own games may of course do so-- as long as they've bought a full copy of Poser 7.)

Quote from: Warlokk
Damn Intellectual Property laws are just ridiculous anyway...


There are problems, yes-- particularly after the passage of the The Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998-- but what organizations like the RIAA claim the law implies are, at best, self-serving.  They tend not to stand up in court.
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hardwaretoad
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 01:04:29 pm »

Excellent posts, szielins, you've obviously done some serious homework. I spent considerable time reading the EULA yesterday from the link that was provided in another post, and will peruse these links as well ~ just 'cause I'm a nosy son-of-a-gun...

BlooM, we here in the Sim Community wish you a speedy response from EFrontier on this matter, the feet you worked so hard to bring us demands no less...



* ScreenShot1317.png (542.69 KB, 394x604 - viewed 746 times.)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 01:13:17 pm by hardwaretoad » Logged

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BlooM
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 02:00:12 pm »

Thnx guy's
HWT, the link you gave me with the other feet........
They are exactly the same lol
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hardwaretoad
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2007, 02:39:43 pm »

So, just say you used those, and let whoever uploaded them worry about it... :laugh:
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BlooM
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2007, 02:45:17 pm »

Quote from: hardwaretoad;838247
So, just say you used those, and let whoever uploaded them worry about it... :laugh:


Lol, wish i knew earlier, i might have done that. Cheesy
The same feet are on a few sites, cant imagine peeps only use them for their own games.
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oniongirl999
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2007, 07:26:43 pm »

So from what szeilins is saying they may tell BlooM he can't distribute the altered feet in any mesh because they'd have to pay a lawyer to draw up the paperwork to give him permission in a way that won't open a legal can of worms?  Just proves Shakespeare was right.

It would be cheaper if they had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy as long as no one resells their work.  

I'm positive that most lawyers were not taught to share as children

I hope szielins' educated guess about their response is wrong.  
Bloom, you've made a noteworthy improvement on the Sims front and I'm going to selfishly say now I'm really glad I downloaded the sexy feet Sims before this happened (because I'm just that shallow Wink.  
One good thing, based on the way you handled it, going to them on your own when you found out there might be a problem, they have no motivation to do worse than say no.

While you're waiting you could always work on readying the CPU curvy bits for animation Wink  At least we know Wes H will never say no to Sim modders.
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szielins
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2007, 04:39:43 pm »

Quote from: oniongirl999;848317
It would be cheaper if they had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy as long as no one resells their work.  


EFrontier didn't ask; they did not come looking for this problem.  But things change when a specific person asks THEM, "Is it okay if I do this specific thing with your stuff?"  Inevitably, they have to wonder, "Wait... is this fellow planning to do something with our stuff that ISN'T fair use?  After all, he doesn't HAVE to ask to ask our permission for fair use-- indeed, we coudn't stop him even if we wanted to.  What's actually going on, here?"  Of course they're going to get nervous, and flag it as, "Better not say yes unless the lawyers say it's okay; something fishy may be going on."  (A cheaper alternative is to say, "We can't say yes unless Legal blesses it, and they're a bit backlogged; we'll get back to you soon," and then pigeonhole it.  A sneakier alternative is to silently pigeonhole it.)

Bear in mind that it was a gravely flawed misreading of the EULA that led to the concern in the first place.  EFrontier almost certainly didn't know BlooM or his meshes from a crate of tinned stoat giblet soup before he initiated contact with them-- and had some random third party just mailed them the URL, they almost certainly would have said, "So what?  He's not reselling Poser 7, he's giving away an add-on useful only for a specific game."

At the risk of becoming a bit preachy, this is one reason why artists really should be familiar with copyright law.  Very few things are truly de novo-- but there are real reasons why (for instance) Warhol could not only produce but also sell prints of Campbell's soup cans perfectly legally, totally without regard for whether the Campbell's people happened to approve or not.
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BlooM
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2007, 05:36:14 pm »

O my, O my, you do have a way with words Wink
I had a message they forwarded it to their legal department, guess it will take a while before they respond Wink
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szielins
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2007, 06:15:37 pm »

Eh.  Experience is a long list of things you'll never do again.  Smiley

Did you promise to keep the meshes down unless they explicitly said it was okay to put them back up?
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